intercooler or water injection ?
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EvoMike
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Running the right inter-cooler(IC) size for your set up will always help cool the charge. The info I would look for when deciding if I was goign to run an IC is 1.> How much boost and airflow is going to be run? Keep in mind that a bigger turbo flows more air at the same boost level as a smaller turbo which will decide the IC size. 2.> How is the bike to be driven? Track bike, daily driver, or daily driven weekend warrior.
I personally would run the alky injection with a 50/50mix of alky/water. According to various shops the alky/water injection mix can cool intake temps up to a diffrence of 190F (I've only seen a difference of around 118-120) and the mix also increases the flash point of the fuel reducing knock allowing more timing to be run which in turn equals more horse power. Oh... I forgot to add that the properties of the water also aid in spooling the turbo.
With that being said, something with the alky kit "could" always go wronge. In most cases people don't check how much alky/water is left in the resivor before they go on a ride. With an IC you don't have to worry about anything. It cools the air charge and all you have to do is tune the bike once for it and forget it. No extra cost of refilling a resivoir like when running alky. But you also don't get the raised flash point or the ever so slight spooling aid from the alky/h2o. All depends on what you are willing to keep up with.
Another option is to run both and get two maps done. One on alky and one off alky. A few of us have gone this route as a saftey for if/when the alky injection goes down for whatever reason.
I personally would run the alky injection with a 50/50mix of alky/water. According to various shops the alky/water injection mix can cool intake temps up to a diffrence of 190F (I've only seen a difference of around 118-120) and the mix also increases the flash point of the fuel reducing knock allowing more timing to be run which in turn equals more horse power. Oh... I forgot to add that the properties of the water also aid in spooling the turbo.
With that being said, something with the alky kit "could" always go wronge. In most cases people don't check how much alky/water is left in the resivor before they go on a ride. With an IC you don't have to worry about anything. It cools the air charge and all you have to do is tune the bike once for it and forget it. No extra cost of refilling a resivoir like when running alky. But you also don't get the raised flash point or the ever so slight spooling aid from the alky/h2o. All depends on what you are willing to keep up with.
Another option is to run both and get two maps done. One on alky and one off alky. A few of us have gone this route as a saftey for if/when the alky injection goes down for whatever reason.
go intercooler. It's the better street setup.
busa2001
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i'm using water injection, i believe an intercoler is more efficient, but i don't like the idea of the intercoler blocking the radiator, i think that will cause overheating problems in traffic on warm days, it also limits how much you can lower the front of the bike, most guys run low profile tire and trim the front fender, if i were to upgrade to an intercoler, i would go with the liquid to air...i believe it's the most efficient on the market....just my opinion
EvoMike
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There was a good discussion on another thread about advantages of alky/water injection. If you haven't read it yet here it is: https://www.hayabusa.org/forums/?act=ST;f=21;t=85306
Check out the FAQs page on SMC enterprise's website. I provided a link to them in that thread. Just some good info about alky/water injection.
Check out the FAQs page on SMC enterprise's website. I provided a link to them in that thread. Just some good info about alky/water injection.
EvoMike
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What is the air-temp both before and after the intercooler in that location after the bike has been warmed up and been put under boost conditions several times.
Before you read the rest of this please understand that the rest of this post is just my opinion and is not based on any testing of the setup above. The experience I have is from working and testing at an automotive garage on Evolutions, WRX STi's, and SRT4s.
I like the fact that the intercooler is hidden retaining the stock look of the bike but with the lack of space behind it, the space between the ram air scoops and the intercooler, and the angle the air hits the intercooler I am hesitant to agree that an intercooler in that location would help after the bike warms up and has been ridden for a while. I feel that the heat from the engine along with the heat soak from the air being pushed through the intercooler will actually heat the air charge rather than cool it. I also believe that with the space between the ram air outlet and the intercooler the air has too much time to heat up and also become effected my whatever turbulence in that area before reaching the intercooler. Another way to think about it is you gotta think about riding on a summer day in stop and go traffic or being in an aggressive driving situation such as at a track or a hard ride with the guys. If you only ride in rural areas and don't drive it like ya stole it then an intercooler may work as intended. If you plan to drive the bike under continuous boost conditions then alky/water injection will actually make the air charge up to 190 degrees cooler.(depending on the mix and amount being sprayed) You get many benefits from alky/water that you don't get from an intercooler as well. An intercooler doesn't up the octane rating of the A/F ratio going into the cylinder allowing you run higher timing with will give you more HP, it doesn't give you that ever so slight assistance with spooling the turbo, and it doesn't cool the air charge as drastically. My money is for the Alky/water. If all you have to do is make sure the reservoir is full in the Alky/water kit, dial in what boost level to start and max a progressive spray, and then get the bike tuned for it I don't see why you wouldn't run it on a turbo setup. With a good alky/water kit it will only help not hurt.
Now if that were a water-to-air intercooler I would have to agree that benefits would be gained but there wouldn't be as many benefits as alky. I would run both a water/air intercooler and alky for maximum gains.
Before you read the rest of this please understand that the rest of this post is just my opinion and is not based on any testing of the setup above. The experience I have is from working and testing at an automotive garage on Evolutions, WRX STi's, and SRT4s.
I like the fact that the intercooler is hidden retaining the stock look of the bike but with the lack of space behind it, the space between the ram air scoops and the intercooler, and the angle the air hits the intercooler I am hesitant to agree that an intercooler in that location would help after the bike warms up and has been ridden for a while. I feel that the heat from the engine along with the heat soak from the air being pushed through the intercooler will actually heat the air charge rather than cool it. I also believe that with the space between the ram air outlet and the intercooler the air has too much time to heat up and also become effected my whatever turbulence in that area before reaching the intercooler. Another way to think about it is you gotta think about riding on a summer day in stop and go traffic or being in an aggressive driving situation such as at a track or a hard ride with the guys. If you only ride in rural areas and don't drive it like ya stole it then an intercooler may work as intended. If you plan to drive the bike under continuous boost conditions then alky/water injection will actually make the air charge up to 190 degrees cooler.(depending on the mix and amount being sprayed) You get many benefits from alky/water that you don't get from an intercooler as well. An intercooler doesn't up the octane rating of the A/F ratio going into the cylinder allowing you run higher timing with will give you more HP, it doesn't give you that ever so slight assistance with spooling the turbo, and it doesn't cool the air charge as drastically. My money is for the Alky/water. If all you have to do is make sure the reservoir is full in the Alky/water kit, dial in what boost level to start and max a progressive spray, and then get the bike tuned for it I don't see why you wouldn't run it on a turbo setup. With a good alky/water kit it will only help not hurt.
Now if that were a water-to-air intercooler I would have to agree that benefits would be gained but there wouldn't be as many benefits as alky. I would run both a water/air intercooler and alky for maximum gains.
The system has been on for a few years now and I don't have the numbers on temp drops ect.
During the tuning process the guys that built it recorded good figures on both temp inlet/outlet ratios and pressure drop across the cooler. Cooling was good during dozens of dyno runs with the tank up and very little air flow over the cooler.
The cooler is mechanically isolated from the engine and turbo by the Si tubing which will minimise contact heat conduction from engine assy.
When the tank is closed the lower rubber sheet covering the engine and the heat insulation on the bottom of the tank gasket the cooler so that when moving there is usually positive pressure on the forward side of the cooler resulting in outside air moving across it most of the time.
With outflow of cooling air there's a lot more space and gap behind the cooler than you might think.
The bike gets well used every day around both the burbs and highways in temps up to 40C.
This month it spent half the day on the dyno to do some adjustments with the tank down and more full power runs that I can remember with no significant loss in power as the day progressed.
Hope that makes sense but you do have some valid points. I am sure an external cooler would be more effective.
Cheers
Ross
EvoMike
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...There are a number or reasons we run alcohol in our water injection systems but what we rely on is the water itself. (Alcohol reduces the weight of the fluid, important in some turbo apps where we have literally bent the impeller blades from fluid weight but also adds to the cooling effect)
Water also cools the charge air and combustion process, but it also produces power by its very nature. Water expands almost twice as much as fuel when heated/burned and is a distinct advantage in racing. There is no single benefit to running water injection, there are several...(is why if you get caught watering your alcohol in NHRA you may as well go home)
We have also documented 10-15% cooler air charge numbers when running alcohol/water mix (50% mix)pre turbo. We use this as a poormans intercooler. The alcohol also lightens the weight of the fluid hitting the impeller blades of a turbo. (8.3lbs for water, 6.5 for alcohol) This is not much of an issue for street apps but when racing, it is a big deal. Racing calls for everything in excess
We had the first alcohol dragster to hit 200Mph at Denver mile high in NHRA competition. That car also brought about a few of these new NHRA rules... (no good deed goes unpunished)
While everyone was running roots blowers, we were running turbos in various configurations. After we got it to work, they made new rules...
EvoMike
Registered
I have always run the injection after the turbo about 6 to 12inches from the throttle bodies. I've seen the blades on the turban side warp from running too big of a hit of straight water. With running it after the compressor housing you still get the benefit of the slight increase of turbo spool due to the expansion properties of water compared to gasoline. Water expands almost twice as much as fuel when heated/burned. Water is also molecularly heaver than pump gas.. Put a different way"¦ More expansion equals more air volume and pressure of the heavier spent gas mix trying to push through the blades causing the turbo to reach full spool quicker. I think when MR Bogus was talking about impeller blades he meant on the turban-side not the compressor-side.
With spraying any liquid mist into the inlet of a spinning blades in the turbo compressor I can't help but to think that it would slow the turbo and/or possibly cause damage and/or excessive wear to the compressor blades. I am going to have to contact the professonal experts on this after the New Year!!
With spraying any liquid mist into the inlet of a spinning blades in the turbo compressor I can't help but to think that it would slow the turbo and/or possibly cause damage and/or excessive wear to the compressor blades. I am going to have to contact the professonal experts on this after the New Year!!
cdhoroho
Registered
water injection is a BAND-AID
this is also the opinion of corky bell of bell enterprises (in his book maximum boost: designing, building, and installing turbo chargers)
i wont use it because of the fact it is just a band-aid for a poorly designed turbo kit
there are plenty of ways to get a turbo kit safe without water injection
i personally am going with a w/a plenum
and for racing im going with an ice box for cooling
an intercooler is a lot more efficient and safer by far
this is similar to the one im having made
mine will be without secondaries as i am going with a full standalone system
this is also the opinion of corky bell of bell enterprises (in his book maximum boost: designing, building, and installing turbo chargers)
i wont use it because of the fact it is just a band-aid for a poorly designed turbo kit
there are plenty of ways to get a turbo kit safe without water injection
i personally am going with a w/a plenum
and for racing im going with an ice box for cooling
an intercooler is a lot more efficient and safer by far
this is similar to the one im having made
mine will be without secondaries as i am going with a full standalone system
EvoMike
Registered
Not real sure how alky injection could be viewed as a Band-Aid.
Like you said h2o/alky injection is great for Mid to High Boost applications. I have never run h2o/alky on a bike with less than 16psi so I can't honestly debate with you for low boost applications. Similuar benifits of alky/water injections could be experanced by the use of higer quality fuels. But then you are back to looking at avalibility of these type fuels. h20/alky is amost everywhere.
IMO, the ice box set up would be a great setup for the track. Not sure of the practicallity of one on a street bike. May get expensive stopping to buy ice while daily driving or on long rides.
Like you said h2o/alky injection is great for Mid to High Boost applications. I have never run h2o/alky on a bike with less than 16psi so I can't honestly debate with you for low boost applications. Similuar benifits of alky/water injections could be experanced by the use of higer quality fuels. But then you are back to looking at avalibility of these type fuels. h20/alky is amost everywhere.
IMO, the ice box set up would be a great setup for the track. Not sure of the practicallity of one on a street bike. May get expensive stopping to buy ice while daily driving or on long rides.
cdhoroho
Registered
E85 would be a fine replacement of the h2o injection 
i must not be the only one who agrees
im planning on running 35-40 pounds of boost and i dont plan on touching the h2o injection
if i were to street my bike i would convert to a water exchanger not ice
ice is for the track
still alot more efficient then the h20 injection
and the tune of the bike and the quality of fuel has more to do with it then the h2o
if corky bell would write it in his book then i cant be that wrong
i must not be the only one who agrees
im planning on running 35-40 pounds of boost and i dont plan on touching the h2o injection
if i were to street my bike i would convert to a water exchanger not ice
ice is for the track
still alot more efficient then the h20 injection
and the tune of the bike and the quality of fuel has more to do with it then the h2o
if corky bell would write it in his book then i cant be that wrong
If you just run E85 vs water/alc in the injection tank you're reult would be a more rich A/F. You would be dumping in even more fuel.
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