I wiped out!

[Charlesbusa]

(reiny @ Sep. 15 2007,08:04) But i still have to think that a tire with softer compounds wud of helped a little,and thats all that matters.

For rain tires is more about how much water the grooves can move and a tire with very fast warmup/staying hot in cold conditions.  A cold wet road is very hard to keep standard street tires hot.  Water sucks the heat right out of tires.  That's why racing rain tires completely melt away in a couple laps on a dry surface, they get way too hot in the dry.

(reiny @ Sep. 15 2007,08:04) Oh ya one other thing, just before i wiped out, i noticed my tires spinning while i was upshifting,It did it twice and i wasn't even riding hard at all!!!!

That was your warning that you had minimal grip.

 

[mymaster]

(JINKSTER @ Sep. 15 2007,10:58) me?...whelp...i can't recount exact names, dates, times, places or render any links or sworn testimoney but...this is not the first story i've heard of avons acting up at low speed causing wobbles and bulldoging the owner right over the side...i've heard several complain of avons "DEVELOPING" some very weird (sometimes violent) low speed wobbles.

+1

I've also heard the same story's, also with different brands, makes & models named ?

 

[bigoltool]

There seems to be a bit of a prevailing misconception that evil “Sport touring tiresâ€￾ (Avon Azaro/Storms. Pirelli Strada’s, Metzeler Z-6’s etc) simply employ harder compounds than their equivalent “Sportâ€￾ tires. Not necessarily so, there are vast differences in tire constructions; compounds, tread depths and designs at play as well. Steel belts help to control shape and also build and maintain heat in the tires sooner than a sport tire. ST tires generally start life with deeper (50% in most cases) tread than their counterparts. The trend of adding lots of silica in ST tires has now become commonplace on Sport tires as well. There is a buzz in the bike tire community lately about dual compound tires and even the new Bridgestone ST tires are touting this as a way to give you better edge grip and longer tread life. My point in all of this is that ST tires available today are not the crap that the fear mongers would lead you to believe. In fact they are very close to the Sport tires in ultimate performance and also last a good deal longer. For the realists who aren’t doing track days or riding on the edge all the time, they represent very real alternatives for day to day riding and in a lot of cases are probably a better fit.

Here is a link to an old Bikeland article on the subject.
http://www.bikeland.org/story.php?storyID=20256

 

[Nekosohana]

I learned a lot from wet riding in Hawaii, and that still didn't stop me from slippin' and slidin' around on my original Bridgestones.  What I learned was counterbalance, attention to speed, don't trip when the rearend breaks traction a little, throttle control are all "learned" behaviors, but I have them now and I had less of them back then.[/Quote]

I like the fact that you noted the word "learned" in here three times.  I ride on the Shinkos I had before I heard all the "Skinkos are the devil!" threads on here.  Ultra soft tires from what I understand.  My first wheelie was an accident because I didn't realize how the tires affect the ride.

Now with that in mind my "slippage" story starts with wet roads too.  We were in AR in the Ozarks where trucks tires have impacted the asphalt to a smoother surface.  We were making a right turn at the last minute with me in the left lane.  I put on a little rear brake and away we went (yep, "we" as in I was two up with my girlfriend when this happened).  Basically, I did what I felt was right, kneed up to the tank, and relax, no throttle, just grabbed the clutch so that it would release any tension on the wheel and not "engine brake" or open up anything that was left on the gear.  As we slid toward the intersection, I saw the car, and about that time the grip came back.

I thought I would try the brakes again since we still had time to turn.  Needless to say, away we went again, ass sliding all over the place.  And for those that have missed this experience so far... NOT fun.  I basically was readying myself for the crash that I thought was coming since there was a car in the distance and it was ocuppying my thoughts more than anything else...

I dropped the clutch, let off the brakes and coasted in clutch neutral until the bike came to a calm stop on the side of the roads.  We stopped about a thousand yards past the turn off.

My girlfriend and I got off the bike and it was then that I realized I was shaking so hard I could barely stand.  Now that we were fine we discussed it and what happened.  She told me that basically what I had taught her was to relax, not fight the bike, and tighten her knees.  I had felt pressure in my back as we were sliding, and she told me that not only did she not hang on to me (not using her hands at all, only her knees as I taught her) but that the pressure I felt on my back was when she arched up her feet and put her hand against my back so that she could push away. I asked how she knew to do this (more than what I had taught her) and she couldn't explain. Only that she had run it through her head a few times and it came automatically.

No offense to the original poster, because in my opinion a bike crash is like a plane crash, not one item failing, but two or three failing at the same time.

Fear will own you if you allow it to, the only way that you can conquer it is to do what she did. Practice practice practice. If you can't do that for real, do it in your head. And in the words of Tyler Durden "You have to know, not fear, but know that one day you are going to die." For many of us, our two wheeled toys will be that means to the end. Once you acknowledge that your 150hp demon has a good chance of causing your permanent death (no matter how good you are as pipefighter has shown) then you can respond accordingly.

 

[gwhunran]

I have avon storms and have put about 3000 miles on them, so far, no problems. Most of my riding is commuting on mountain roads. I thought they would make a better wet weather tire. They may take a little longer to warm up. The tires seem to take longer to "warm up"/"get sticky" when the ambient temps are lower, like on the morning drive to work. When I leave for home and the temp is hot and road is dry, the tires seem to stick real well. My ride home in the late afternoon is usually faster than the ride in.

 

[LeeFL2]

I see no problem in dropping into 1st gear. Just feather it a bit in order to smooth the transition. It will all depend on what speed you are at . Just remember that when wet, you have maybe 50% traction when going straight. Less when leaned over or turning.

As to your tire choice and prices you paid. Can't say anything about your tire in particular but the price seems way off. I would go with Pilot Power. I live in Florida and use the Pilot Road tires. Better mileage, good grip. If you have twisties where you live go with the Power's , or the Dual Compound Power 2ct.

If you are paying more than $200 installed, you are paying too much. $350 is a ripoff. I paid $180 for my Pilot Road rear installed.

 

[LeeFL2]

Also bear in mind that as soon as the road turns wet, it cools your tires down. Now you are no longer riding on warmed up tires, but riding on cold tires on a wet road! Double jeopardy!

If you were sliping your tire on a bike that was weighing 700-800 pounds on the asphalt, you were applying way too much torque to the wheel. If you skipped your rear on a downshift in the wet, it was probably due to too hard of a downshift for the conditions. I don't think any tire would have made a difference.

Let me tell you why I feel this way. I live in South Florida. Here we ride in the rain all summer long. It rains here every day. I have lot's of experience riding in these conditions. We take off and the weather is nice and get caught in a heavy downpour in the afternoon. At temps of 75-85 we can ride in the rain all day.

When it is raining you have to practicly tiptoe around on the bike. It is like riding on ice(almost). It lulls you into thinking you have traction because you can hit the brakes and feel good stopping power, feels like 80%. That can change from one second to the next if riding style or road texture change. You will go from 80% traction to 10-5-0% in a second flat. Ride in the rain like you are walking on eggshels.

PS: Here's a pic of the Pilot Road tire:

Note: Yes it sticks less than the original tire that was on the bike and I ride accordingly, notice the chicke strips. I had none on the Bridgestones.

 

[JINKSTER]

it seems like i still ain't gett'in through to some folks out there soooo?...lemme cover a few more basic bases...

1. You don't get both "Stick" & "High-Milage"...you get one or the other..but not both...now?...given that choice?...the agrressive street rider will always go with "STICK"...now here's the hook...

2. It's always "The Commuters" amidst us that venture out of that well established box....as while they'll fork out thousands upon thousands for their Beloved Busa and then thousands more in gear and accessories?.....they'll turn around and spoon on a harder compound tire to gain some milage?...wtf?....Okay....so i hear ya...i feel your pain...we'd all love a tire that gets unlimited milage...but what "the commuters" seem to fail to realize or take into account is this...

THEY'VE JUST NEUTERED THE HANDLING CAPABILITIES IN A BIG WAY

so what says you?....here's what...what about Sticky Tires that....

Accelerate harder...

Stop Quicker...

and?...

Don't give up THE TRACTION just when "a commuter" would need it most..and is called...

"EMERGENCY EVASIVE MANUEVERS"

STICKIER....means you can shed speed quicker...STICKIER...means you can snap a hard ess even harder...and then throttle out even harder...

where "the commuters" harder high-milage ST tire wouldn't hold it's patch...sending it's pilot into, through or under that minivan that lurches out in front fro a left hander without looking.

"Sticky Tires" can save your life....even a commuter....and sometimes?...especially a commuter.

L8R, Bill.

 

[DAB]

If the road surface was semi-wet due to recent rain, that means the grease, grit and oil on the road surface haven't been washed away yet. Be extra cautious, smooth and gentle with throttle, braking, clutch and lean to minimize loss of traction.

If you're using engine braking in 1st AND applying the rear brake you are definitely risking a rear wheel lockup.

Remember, if you're applying front brake (and you'd better, because that's where most of the stopping power is,) weight is transferred to the front of the bike, compressing the forks and reducing the weight on the rear tire, making it easier for it to lock or hop and skip.

Personally, I do use engine braking when downshifting (cars and bikes, since I was 13), and in 1st occasionally, but I only use the front brake if I do it in 1st gear and at about 5mph, and with some serious clutch slipping (mainly for my passenger's benfit so she doesn't get pitched forward as much when I ride 2-up.)

One more thing, the 'Busa has prodigious torque, I don't think I've ever downshifted to 1st to take a corner, it would make the throttle far too "twitchy" and increase the likelihood of the backend breaking traction. 1st is usually for starting and gentle stopping only IMHO.

 

[DAB]

(JINKSTER @ Sep. 23 2007,09:37) it seems like i still ain't gett'in through to some folks out there soooo?...lemme cover a few more basic bases...

1. You don't get both "Stick" & "High-Milage"...you get one or the other..but not both...now?...given that choice?...the agrressive street rider will always go with "STICK"...now here's the hook...

2. It's always "The Commuters" amidst us that venture out of that well established box....as while they'll fork out thousands upon thousands for their Beloved Busa and then thousands more in gear and accessories?.....they'll turn around and spoon on a harder compound tire to gain some milage?...wtf?....Okay....so i hear ya...i feel your pain...we'd all love a tire that gets unlimited milage...but what "the commuters" seem to fail to realize or take into account is this...

THEY'VE JUST NEUTERED THE HANDLING CAPABILITIES IN A BIG WAY

so what says you?....here's what...what about Sticky Tires that....

Accelerate harder...

Stop Quicker...

and?...

Don't give up THE TRACTION just when "a commuter" would need it most..and is called...

"EMERGENCY EVASIVE MANUEVERS"

STICKIER....means you can shed speed quicker...STICKIER...means you can snap a hard ess even harder...and then throttle out even harder...

where "the commuters" harder high-milage ST tire wouldn't hold it's patch...sending it's pilot into, through or under that minivan that lurches out in front fro a left hander without looking.

"Sticky Tires" can save your life....even a commuter....and sometimes?...especially a commuter.

L8R, Bill.

Agreed, I've gone for sticky tires every time on all the bikes I've owned, and the 'Busa is a powerful sports bike, it demands the best in tires, brakes, suspension components etc.

You wouldn't put $50 tires on a Ferrari, would you?

I do sometimes wish I could get more than 3,000 miles out of the rear though

 

[BusaWhipped]

Funny this thread popup up again. I just road from the dry, into the rain, and out the other side with Avons on the bike. While in the rain, I was on the highway, exited, and rode through traffic. Somehow, I managed not to crash in the wet with Avons on the bike. From reading the thread, I guess I must be one of the luckiest guys around.

I can tell most of the opinions about the Avon are from people who never actually rode them.

 

[Luvanicebum]

I believe the term we used to use back in the 80's was "double clutching".
In a car it's fun to double clutch a skid mark at 60 mph by ripping the clutch out in 2nd, but on a bike......well.....this is the result.

 

[Mr Bogus]

I am really surprised to see comment that tire compound would have made much difference. Tire design (grooving) would be more of an issue on wet roads. In this aspect, most of the "road" tires I have seen have superior wet grooves than the hot rod tires. Glad to see someone like Charlesbusa spell out the facts

Blasting guys for running harder longer wearing road tires really is not legit. I tend to opt for higher mileage tires myself over the 1500/2000 mile sport compounds. When you ride 15-20K per year 2 sets of tires is a substantial difference over 10 sets. (keeping a set of stickies mounted on spare rims is cheaper)

 

[heavyjeffd]

If you are going to downshift (on any bike really) you have to rev match, you can't just dump it into the next lowest gear. With the Busa this is even more prevelent.

 

[LeeFL2]

(JINKSTER @ Sep. 23 2007,09:37) it seems like i still ain't gett'in through to some folks out there soooo?...lemme cover a few more basic bases...

1. You don't get both "Stick" & "High-Milage"...you get one or the other..but not both...now?...given that choice?...the agrressive street rider will always go with "STICK"...now here's the hook...

2. It's always "The Commuters" amidst us that venture out of that well established box....as while they'll fork out thousands upon thousands for their Beloved Busa and then thousands more in gear and accessories?.....they'll turn around and spoon on a harder compound tire to gain some milage?...wtf?....Okay....so i hear ya...i feel your pain...we'd all love a tire that gets unlimited milage...but what "the commuters" seem to fail to realize or take into account is this...

THEY'VE JUST NEUTERED THE HANDLING CAPABILITIES IN A BIG WAY

so what says you?....here's what...what about Sticky Tires that....

Accelerate harder...

Stop Quicker...

and?...

Don't give up THE TRACTION just when "a commuter" would need it most..and is called...

"EMERGENCY EVASIVE MANUEVERS"

STICKIER....means you can shed speed quicker...STICKIER...means you can snap a hard ess even harder...and then throttle out even harder...

where "the commuters" harder high-milage ST tire wouldn't hold it's patch...sending it's pilot into, through or under that minivan that lurches out in front fro a left hander without looking.

"Sticky Tires" can save your life....even a commuter....and sometimes?...especially a commuter.

L8R, Bill.

Very good point, but....

Nothing wrong with running sport touring tires. Just know their capabilities and stay within them. It's like saying don't ride a cruiser cause it is heavy and doesn't handle. You take that into account when you hop on. If that were the case, we should all switch to liter bikes cause they handle better and can keep us from getting into trouble.

Since I live in Florida, I figured I would give the Pilot Road a try. I like it. Handles well, very predictable, wet traction excellent. No complaints! Was told it will get 6k, we will see.

 

[BusaWhipped]

Anyone who was at the Spring Bash can attest to the fact the the Avons have a ton of grip, even tough the are long mileage ST tires. Or at least anyone who tried to keep up with me can attest to it. Vman was faster through the dragon, but he was running race tires and has a few thousand dollars worth of suspension upgrades.

Any spouting off the ST tires are too hard to have any grip doesn't have a clue what there are talking about regarding tire technology. Duel compond tires are harder down the center where a street tire spends most of its time and softer on the sides to provide grip when cornering.
Unless you are treating the street like the track, a ST tire has more stick than most riders have guts.

If someone wants to dismiss their accident as "wrong tire," then they won't learn anything from the crash, and are bound to repeat it again. They'll blame whatever brand tire happens to be on the bike that time and still not learn anything.

 

[LeeFL2]

(BusaWhipped @ Sep. 23 2007,18:19) Anyone who was at the Spring Bash can attest to the fact the the Avons have a ton of grip, even tough the are long mileage ST tires.  Or at least anyone who tried to keep up with me can attest to it.  Vman was faster through the dragon, but he was running race tires and has a few thousand dollars worth of suspension upgrades.

Any spouting off the ST tires are too hard to have any grip doesn't have a clue what there are talking about regarding tire technology.  Duel compond tires are harder down the center where a street tire spends most of its time and softer on the sides to provide grip when cornering.  
Unless you are treating the street like the track, a ST tire has more stick than most riders have guts.

If someone wants to dismiss their accident as "wrong tire," then they won't learn anything from the crash, and are bound to repeat it again. They'll blame whatever brand tire happens to be on the bike that time and still not learn anything.

Concur.

 

[Big Tuna]

I love my avons