How to fix Rossi's Ducati

fallenarch

THE SLOW RIDER
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Did you all read the interview of Rossi in the latest issue of MCN? Wow! He really sounds beat. But I think there is an easy fix for the GP12's lack of flexibility in the steering head. The answer might be to add a pivoting head stock that can move in the plane perpendicular to the direction the bike is traveling (side to side). This would be a very small amount of movement - maybe 1/2" or less. Then this pivoting head would be attached to a "spring" that would allow it to deflect as the bike is leaned over in a turn. This would simulate flexing of the frame and the "spring" could be adjustible for different feels. Maybe the "spring" is layers of steel, or plastic, or steel and plastic. All of this could be very compact and boltable to the airbox frame without serious revisions to the basic design of the bike.

So, maybe getting flex in the entire frame is less desirable than having controlled flex in a specfic and controlled area. Best of all the entire airbox idea would not have to be scrapped. Seems simple, wonder if anyone has thought of it at Ducati?
 
:cookoo:Yeah, Ducati could definitely learn a thing or two from Suzuki in MotoGp.. ??? I know one thing they can learn... FIX IT, don't just bring out the same bike every year and expect it not to come in last place... :banghead:
 
I don't really follow the tech, but if people go nuts and have have nothing but praise for their street bikes, why would their race bikes have issues :dunno:
 
I don't really follow the tech, but if people go nuts and have have nothing but praise for their street bikes, why would their race bikes have issues :dunno:

Because less than 1% of riders out there will push a bike to the level that GP riders do. These guys don't drag knees...they drag elbows, at over 100mph. The performance of these bikes and riders is truly incredible.
 
I don't really follow the tech, but if people go nuts and have have nothing but praise for their street bikes, why would their race bikes have issues :dunno:

GP bikes are like F1 cars. The technology is literally 10 years ahead of the stuff you can buy and a lot of it is so crazy they will probably never be able to make it affordable. The science and technology involved in these bikes is crazy. And the level of the riders is just at the edge of what a human can do. We think $20K is too much for a Busa? Try $1-$2 million for a GP bike. That's why only the best get to ride them.

Funny thing though is the Moto 2 bikes (which are basically $30-$50K bikes you could probably build) provide better racing .
 
I would love to see Rossi, Jorge, Casy & Spies all on competitive bikes at the same time, that would be a race like no other. Hopefully we will get to see that before Rossi quits.
 
I read both articles, but didn't see anything about lack of flexibility in the GP12's steering head or frame. I know from last year that Rossi and Hayden complained about the lack of feel in the front end, so that when they were approaching the limits of traction, there was no gradual warning--rather, they would hit the limit and lose the front end without warning. So, maybe it's lack of flex (and your idea sounds like a potential solution), or maybe it's an imbalance that keeps the front end too light to allow for enough feel. With Rossi and Hayden at the wheel, and their engineers getting feedback from every race, they have to know the problem, but it seems that the source has evaded them. Rossi commented last year that there was no more adjustment left in the GP11, so they needed to go back to basics. I'm curious what major changes were made to the bike. And remember, Ducati has won with earlier iterations of the bike.
 
The problem with the Ducati is well documented. When they dropped the trellis frame and went to the CF air box frame they could not get the proper flex in the carbon fiber air box thats 12" long that they could in the trellis frame that was metal and 3 feet long. When the bike is leaned over the forks don't provide any bump absorbsion. So the flex in the frame gives a little as the bike moves along the track. With the Ducati being so stiff, the front end "snaps" when it lets go - giving the rider no warning. Stoner was just willing to ride the bike at the edge and take his chances that it will not lose the front. In that same MCN issue there is an interview with Stoner and he basically says to ride the Ducati you have to just take your chances.

Stoner tried to get Ducati to go back to the trellis frame but Ducati was already well into the design of the 1199 and that is it's central feature, Ducati is determined to make the air box frame work, Stoner and Rossi just want to win races. It's a very interesting situation. With Stoner, I think Ducati was feeling if he wants to go that's fine. But they paid all that money to have Rossi on the 1199's GP version. So they can't let the GOAT end his career in the gravel trying to get 8th place and they can't admit that the 1199 was designed around a flawed frame concept.

This is going to be a very big issue. Ducati's future is going to be heavily influenced by the success of the 1199. But can it be a big seller if it can't be raced at the highest levels? How will the bike fare if it's the design that ended Rossi's dominance in the GP class? I think the air box frame has merit and is a great idea for packaging the bike. And frankly, there probably aren't many people who can expose the front end weaknesses short of 10 or 12 of the best riders in the world. But it's still there and I think Ducati has to fix it.
 
[Did Ducati really utilize a trellis frame in GP racing? I know it was used in WSBK, which was mandated by homologation rules, but I never thought they did in GP racing. I knew they moved from a CF to an aluminum twin spar to allow more flex, but I never heard of the trellis frame on a GP bike. ] Edit: I found a picture of the Desmosedici RR's trellis frame, which completely amazed me! Where are you getting all of the technical information? I'd like to learn more.

On another note, I recall Honda coming alive (at the expense of Ducati) in the second half of one of the WSBK seasons, and Cycle World's Kevin Cameron commenting that he discovered one of the several bolts that attached the engine to the frame was gone, allowing the frame to flex slightly more than before.
 
I found a picture of the Desmosedici RR's trellis frame, which completely amazed me! Where are you getting all of the technical information? I'd like to learn more.

I read a lot of magazines and boooks about motorcycle racing and design. European magazines cover MotoGP much better than ours do here in the US. I think the best technical information comes from MCN. Most people would want to be the top riders, I would want to be one of the top designers. I love the machinery.
 
Interview with Stoner in this months Roadracing World where he talks about some of his riding style on the Ducati. He mentions using wheel spin to unload the front tire a bit and steer it from the rear more, to allay the sketchy front end of the Duc. It's mixed in with so much snide, condescending, blather about Rossi that you have to pick through the BS to get to the useful stuff, but it's a fair read none the less. You could see in the slow-mo footage Stoner using the same method on the Honda this year, with the obvious results. Valentino (and most everyone else except Tony Elias) has tried to ride the 800 Ducatis in a "two wheels in line" style, loading the front more, and bringing out the worst in the beast.
 
All good thoughts ^^ :thumbsup: but maybe they need to put an Aussie on it as Casey & Troy Bayliss seem to know how to ride them.:laugh:
No doubt that Stoner and Bayliss are two of the best--wonder what you put in that water down under? (On a related note, Phillip Island is one of the most beautiful tracks on the GP circuit. Never been there, but it's a pleasure to watch the bikes with that magnificent backdrop.)

I wish Bayliss would have had a longer run in MotoGP, but he was really made for Ducati's WSBK team. He really understood the bikes, and was able to make the transition from each version without much effort. Plus, he never had anything but positive things to say about his team and the competition. I always liked the fact that Stoner was fairly humble, but now, I think he's talking too much of Ducati's failures and the inability of Hayden and Rossi to understand and ride the bike. He could take a lesson or two from Bayliss.
 
"I read a lot of magazines and boooks about motorcycle racing and design. European magazines cover MotoGP much better than ours do here in the US. I think the best technical information comes from MCN. Most people would want to be the top riders, I would want to be one of the top designers. I love the machinery."


Thanks for the info; I'll spend some time checking out MCN. I agree that the machinery is fascinating; when I read Cameron's columns in Cycle World, it's interesting to see the common thread that runs through many of them: when a slight change is made to one component, it has an effect on many others that may not have been anticipated.
 
I always liked the fact that Stoner was fairly humble, but now, I think he's talking too much of Ducati's failures and the inability of Hayden and Rossi to understand and ride the bike. He could take a lesson or two from Bayliss.

IMO he's turned into pretty much an arrogant little prick. I respect his talent, but I can't stand him otherwise. I'd think a lot more of him if he'd speak with his win record and leave the snide gloating to the news commentators. The talk definitely shows the female side of his personality..
 
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