How many here balance their own wheels?
- Thread starter BentValve
- Start date
credibilty, ####-tard. You can STFU and rent a room on your own.
suzuki4life
Banned
I take my rims to a local wheel shop. They charge $20 per wheel to unmount old tire, mount new tire and spin balance. I charge $20 to mount and static balance local squids wheels. Spin balancer is by far more accurate. I tell them where to take there stuff but they claim its too far to drive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I take my rims to a local wheel shop. They charge $20 per wheel to unmount old tire, mount new tire and spin balance. I charge $20 to mount and static balance local squids wheels. Spin balancer is by far more accurate. I tell them where to take there stuff but they claim its too far to drive. [/QUOTE]
Spin balancers are on average about 10 grams off, a good static balancer is good down to 3 grams.
If you want proof I will look it up, the main (only advantage IMO) to a dynamic balancer is speed. Thats it.
There are basically three different types of balancers: Dynamic or "spin" balancers, static balancers and bubble balancers.
You'll most likely find a spin balancer in your dealer's workshop. The benefits to a shop in having a spin balancer are:
Speed. A wheel can be balanced in a minute or two.
Simplicity. As with most automated equipment, spin balancers are pretty "stupid proof". With less input there is less chance the operator will screw up the job.
On the other hand there are some downsides such as:
Maintenance and Calibration. Automated equipment is great when its cared for. A lack of care ends up with a poorly calibrated machine that will cause more harm than good.
Expensive machines often stay in use well beyond their service life giving poor results.
Adaptability. Can the machine be set up to do all the different varieties of wheels in the marketplace? Usually not. When it is possible, does the operator know which mountings to use, etc?
Bubble balancers are not anywhere near as accurate as either a spin or static balancer. Their main advantage is that they're cheap. If you are going to use a bubble balancer I would almost recommend not balancing at all. In my experience they are totally ineffective.
For the small shop and home user the simplest and most durable balancer will undoubtedly be a static balancer. For that matter, the next time you're at the Superbike or MotoGP races take a stroll through the pits.
Here are teams that can afford the best and what will you find? Static balancers. I've yet to see a spin balancer in any of the top team pits. And these guys are running close to 200 mph.
[/QUOTE]
Why a fvcking pipe from Home Depot and your old Chevy axle berings wont do.....
What are the technical considerations when comparing balancers?
Ok, now we get down to the nitty-gritty.
Size. As they say, "size matters." Consider how often you're going to use the balancer as well as where you're going to store it for the majority of time when it isn't being used.
If you're like me, garage space is always at a premium.
Weight and Portability. Are you looking for a balancer that is going to stay in your garage or would you like one with the option to easily take it with you for those "tire changing marathons" at your buddy's place?
Adaptability. This is a big one! Does the manufacturer offer different mountings for all the different wheels you might run into today and in the future or will you have to buy special adapters from the dealer?
I can't stress how important of a consideration this should be. A balancer will do you no good if it won't work on the wheels of the bike you'll be riding next season. Think ahead and ask the question before you buy.
Bearings. One critical aspect of a balancer that affects its performance are the type and quality of the bearings used to support the axle. They should be of a low drag design but also protected from the elements. Many balancers use exposed ball bearings. These have very low drag but if you can touch the balls then dirt and grit can too.
On the other hand, sealed bearings like those in your wheels, are designed with rubber wipers in order to protect the bearing from water and dirt. They stay clean inside but the wipers produce drag and stiction which are the last things you want in a balancer. I am using shielded bearings.
This style uses steel covers on the sides of the bearings which protect them from dirt and grit but do not produce any drag. A perfect combination.
Axle. Often overlooked, the axle is also a critical element in the balancer. It must be perfectly round, straight, hard and resistant to bending. I chose my axle source very carefully. I ended up with .500" tool steel. It is dead-on-size and straight within .001" over its 12" length.
Cones. In order to support the wheel without any runout or wobble, cones and adapters must be machined to exacting specifications. Their surface has to be dead-on-size and perfectly concentric with the axle bore.
If this isn't done correctly you'll be balancing to compensate for the runout in the cones rather than the imbalance in your wheel. I machine my cones and adapters on a Clausing CNC lathe producing both the taper and bore at the same time in one setup.
What this means is that the axle bore and surface are dead-on. You should also consider the material the cones are made of. The material should be durable.
Plastic cones will not last and probably will not hold their size. Look for steel or aluminum. Mine are machined from 6061-T6 aircraft aluminum billet.
[/QUOTE]
I had no idea how sweet a good static balancer really is until I used my Metzeler, now I understand what its all about....after using it its self exclamatory as to its accuracy.
If you are willing to spend the time you can truely have a perfect balance ...you yourself know its perfect.
Your not putting your faith in some machine to do it for you.
And shame on you for selling "local squids" something you dont believe in. I hope you get your ass sued if one of them dies from one of your mount and balance jobs.
<!--EDIT|BentValve
Reason for Edit: None given...|1119385800 -->
I take my rims to a local wheel shop. They charge $20 per wheel to unmount old tire, mount new tire and spin balance. I charge $20 to mount and static balance local squids wheels. Spin balancer is by far more accurate. I tell them where to take there stuff but they claim its too far to drive. [/QUOTE]
Spin balancers are on average about 10 grams off, a good static balancer is good down to 3 grams.
If you want proof I will look it up, the main (only advantage IMO) to a dynamic balancer is speed. Thats it.
There are basically three different types of balancers: Dynamic or "spin" balancers, static balancers and bubble balancers.
You'll most likely find a spin balancer in your dealer's workshop. The benefits to a shop in having a spin balancer are:
Speed. A wheel can be balanced in a minute or two.
Simplicity. As with most automated equipment, spin balancers are pretty "stupid proof". With less input there is less chance the operator will screw up the job.
On the other hand there are some downsides such as:
Maintenance and Calibration. Automated equipment is great when its cared for. A lack of care ends up with a poorly calibrated machine that will cause more harm than good.
Expensive machines often stay in use well beyond their service life giving poor results.
Adaptability. Can the machine be set up to do all the different varieties of wheels in the marketplace? Usually not. When it is possible, does the operator know which mountings to use, etc?
Bubble balancers are not anywhere near as accurate as either a spin or static balancer. Their main advantage is that they're cheap. If you are going to use a bubble balancer I would almost recommend not balancing at all. In my experience they are totally ineffective.
For the small shop and home user the simplest and most durable balancer will undoubtedly be a static balancer. For that matter, the next time you're at the Superbike or MotoGP races take a stroll through the pits.
Here are teams that can afford the best and what will you find? Static balancers. I've yet to see a spin balancer in any of the top team pits. And these guys are running close to 200 mph.
[/QUOTE]
Why a fvcking pipe from Home Depot and your old Chevy axle berings wont do.....
What are the technical considerations when comparing balancers?
Ok, now we get down to the nitty-gritty.
Size. As they say, "size matters." Consider how often you're going to use the balancer as well as where you're going to store it for the majority of time when it isn't being used.
If you're like me, garage space is always at a premium.
Weight and Portability. Are you looking for a balancer that is going to stay in your garage or would you like one with the option to easily take it with you for those "tire changing marathons" at your buddy's place?
Adaptability. This is a big one! Does the manufacturer offer different mountings for all the different wheels you might run into today and in the future or will you have to buy special adapters from the dealer?
I can't stress how important of a consideration this should be. A balancer will do you no good if it won't work on the wheels of the bike you'll be riding next season. Think ahead and ask the question before you buy.
Bearings. One critical aspect of a balancer that affects its performance are the type and quality of the bearings used to support the axle. They should be of a low drag design but also protected from the elements. Many balancers use exposed ball bearings. These have very low drag but if you can touch the balls then dirt and grit can too.
On the other hand, sealed bearings like those in your wheels, are designed with rubber wipers in order to protect the bearing from water and dirt. They stay clean inside but the wipers produce drag and stiction which are the last things you want in a balancer. I am using shielded bearings.
This style uses steel covers on the sides of the bearings which protect them from dirt and grit but do not produce any drag. A perfect combination.
Axle. Often overlooked, the axle is also a critical element in the balancer. It must be perfectly round, straight, hard and resistant to bending. I chose my axle source very carefully. I ended up with .500" tool steel. It is dead-on-size and straight within .001" over its 12" length.
Cones. In order to support the wheel without any runout or wobble, cones and adapters must be machined to exacting specifications. Their surface has to be dead-on-size and perfectly concentric with the axle bore.
If this isn't done correctly you'll be balancing to compensate for the runout in the cones rather than the imbalance in your wheel. I machine my cones and adapters on a Clausing CNC lathe producing both the taper and bore at the same time in one setup.
What this means is that the axle bore and surface are dead-on. You should also consider the material the cones are made of. The material should be durable.
Plastic cones will not last and probably will not hold their size. Look for steel or aluminum. Mine are machined from 6061-T6 aircraft aluminum billet.
[/QUOTE]
I had no idea how sweet a good static balancer really is until I used my Metzeler, now I understand what its all about....after using it its self exclamatory as to its accuracy.
If you are willing to spend the time you can truely have a perfect balance ...you yourself know its perfect.
Your not putting your faith in some machine to do it for you.
And shame on you for selling "local squids" something you dont believe in. I hope you get your ass sued if one of them dies from one of your mount and balance jobs.
<!--EDIT|BentValve
Reason for Edit: None given...|1119385800 -->
I like Rhythm , he is a cool cat but I am standing by this one. His pipe balancer might be better than nothing but thats about it.
I think Rhythm is a big boy and he can handle himself just fine without your help.
Not trying to help him handle his affairs, BV...just trying to save you some $$$. If you have $$$ to burn, then by all means, burn it all to hell. Like he said, pick your poison. If you wanna spend mucho bucks on some tools, then by all means, go for it. It ain't my money, so big deal....go forth and be happy.
Pics and price on that metzler balancer, please?
I change my own tires and do a static balance on a set-up similar to what Rhythm posted (home made). My bike rides smooth as glass, but I wouldn't mind shellin' out for a good gadget if it's really a good one and isn't outrageously priced...
Ok,Pimps let chill on this who has the better T/B. Hands down to BV T/B probably being a better T/B based on the writeup he found. Also again I never said that my home jobber was better or a universal T/B tool for other bikes.
My help was intended for the DIY Busa person that wants to get a balanced tire safely and econimonically , not for someone looking to make a profit tire changing and balancing other bikes !
Why a fvcking pipe from Home Depot and your old Chevy axle berings wont do.....[/QUOTE]
Slow down, BV, once again , read my post on the DIY T/b. It uses the stock bearings located inside your rim, nothing else so there is no need for other bearings as you have said. I'm sure BulletTrain can co-sign on this statement since he has used my technique and to which he can be very critical construcitively when giving his opinion !
BulletTrain comment !
Pics and price on that metzler balancer, please? I change my own tires and do a static balance on a set-up similar to what Rhythm posted (home made). My bike rides smooth as glass, but I wouldn't mind shellin' out for a good gadget if it's really a good one and isn't outrageously priced... [/QUOTE]
My exact same feeling Bullet. But when an individual can easily build one for their self (""DIY"" ) for $15 compared to $134. This is a no brainer.
Now, (calibration )to make sure you're getting a close to perfect balance using your home jobber static balancer like mine. Take 2 min to check you bearings prior using the static balancer I have made. This can be done by placing your fingers inside the bearing while it is seated inside the rim , no removal of the bearing from the rim is necessary . While performing this test, make sure they spin freely, dont feel loose (wobble) and you dont make any kinds of sounds when you rotate it back and forth.
If your bearings fail this test you will now need a new set to achieve an accurate balance. Whats so nice about this it will let you know its time to replace your bearing and that your home jobber is out of calibration
..
On that note, I honestly dont believe Suzuki would use crap bearing in their rims and feel that using a decent pair of greased stock bearing will be just fine for balancing.
Once again choose your poison
My .02 again
Peace love and hair grease
Ty
My help was intended for the DIY Busa person that wants to get a balanced tire safely and econimonically , not for someone looking to make a profit tire changing and balancing other bikes !
Why a fvcking pipe from Home Depot and your old Chevy axle berings wont do.....[/QUOTE]
Slow down, BV, once again , read my post on the DIY T/b. It uses the stock bearings located inside your rim, nothing else so there is no need for other bearings as you have said. I'm sure BulletTrain can co-sign on this statement since he has used my technique and to which he can be very critical construcitively when giving his opinion !
BulletTrain comment !
Pics and price on that metzler balancer, please? I change my own tires and do a static balance on a set-up similar to what Rhythm posted (home made). My bike rides smooth as glass, but I wouldn't mind shellin' out for a good gadget if it's really a good one and isn't outrageously priced... [/QUOTE]
My exact same feeling Bullet. But when an individual can easily build one for their self (""DIY"" ) for $15 compared to $134. This is a no brainer.
Now, (calibration )to make sure you're getting a close to perfect balance using your home jobber static balancer like mine. Take 2 min to check you bearings prior using the static balancer I have made. This can be done by placing your fingers inside the bearing while it is seated inside the rim , no removal of the bearing from the rim is necessary . While performing this test, make sure they spin freely, dont feel loose (wobble) and you dont make any kinds of sounds when you rotate it back and forth.
If your bearings fail this test you will now need a new set to achieve an accurate balance. Whats so nice about this it will let you know its time to replace your bearing and that your home jobber is out of calibration
On that note, I honestly dont believe Suzuki would use crap bearing in their rims and feel that using a decent pair of greased stock bearing will be just fine for balancing.
Once again choose your poison
My .02 again
Peace love and hair grease
Ty
First off youve already mentioned your home balancer in this thread, we all appreciate you input and its valued, however this is my thread and we are moving on to other things. Pacific decided to jump back in here and bring up the $15 DIY tool....that is not cool and in fact pretty rude if you ask me.
I'll say one more thing about your DIY balancer since to topic is now once again and then I would appreciate it if we can leave it alone and move on. Again thanks alot Rhythm , I am sure many people can and will benefit from your balancer.
so here:
A the stock berings are greased (drag), a little drag will likely yield you a decent balance, but if perfect is what you are after
then they wont work, when the wheel is near perfect is when the berings will need to work the hardest...the slightest drag will not allow a perfect balance.
B your cones are not anywhere near perfectly concentric.. you wheel may appear to be on perfect but is it? Again a runout gauge could help you determine this.
C home depot pipe may appear straight go strap on a runout gauge on that sucker, id be willing to bet its far from it,
I am going to measure the Metzeler rod when I get a chance, do you realize how straight within .001 is? Nearly everything
sold that appears straight is really not. Except of course things that are required to be straight such as brake rotors.
Ever had a car with brake pulsation due to a warped rotor(s)? Well most vehichles have a tolerance for runout, in other words
you wont even feel the slightest pulsing with a rotor runout of say around .003" @ .005" you may not even be bothered.
Again , your balancer will probably do anyone just fine. So thanks Rhythm.
You have my thoughts on why id rather buy a balancer with perfectly machined parts vs a DIY one..cost is not the issue.
Lets not argue this any further please.
I'll say one more thing about your DIY balancer since to topic is now once again and then I would appreciate it if we can leave it alone and move on. Again thanks alot Rhythm , I am sure many people can and will benefit from your balancer.
so here:
A the stock berings are greased (drag), a little drag will likely yield you a decent balance, but if perfect is what you are after
then they wont work, when the wheel is near perfect is when the berings will need to work the hardest...the slightest drag will not allow a perfect balance.
B your cones are not anywhere near perfectly concentric.. you wheel may appear to be on perfect but is it? Again a runout gauge could help you determine this.
C home depot pipe may appear straight go strap on a runout gauge on that sucker, id be willing to bet its far from it,
I am going to measure the Metzeler rod when I get a chance, do you realize how straight within .001 is? Nearly everything
sold that appears straight is really not. Except of course things that are required to be straight such as brake rotors.
Ever had a car with brake pulsation due to a warped rotor(s)? Well most vehichles have a tolerance for runout, in other words
you wont even feel the slightest pulsing with a rotor runout of say around .003" @ .005" you may not even be bothered.
Again , your balancer will probably do anyone just fine. So thanks Rhythm.
You have my thoughts on why id rather buy a balancer with perfectly machined parts vs a DIY one..cost is not the issue.
Lets not argue this any further please.
One more thing.
Cost is not the issue especially since I went down from a lowside @ 80mph possibly due to an out of balanced front rim....
the off weight on a wheel can translate to hundreds of pounds of force @ higher speeds @ 186mph 30 grams out might be deadly. Perhaps not but I dont want to find out.
<!--EDIT|BentValve
Reason for Edit: None given...|1119407324 -->
Cost is not the issue especially since I went down from a lowside @ 80mph possibly due to an out of balanced front rim....
the off weight on a wheel can translate to hundreds of pounds of force @ higher speeds @ 186mph 30 grams out might be deadly. Perhaps not but I dont want to find out.
<!--EDIT|BentValve
Reason for Edit: None given...|1119407324 -->
$153.95 shipped..Pics and price on that metzler balancer, please?I change my own tires and do a static balance on a set-up similar to what Rhythm posted (home made). My bike rides smooth as glass, but I wouldn't mind shellin' out for a good gadget if it's really a good one and isn't outrageously priced...
http://www.hondadirectlineusa.com/stores....9809605
Its made in Germany by a company called Telefix, the cheaper version is showed but the one the are selling is this model, though its painted blue and has the Metzeler printed on it. The pull out storage tray is nice.
http://telefix-products.com/
Believe me, I did alot of research on balancers and this is the best one your going to find for this amount of money...and frankly I stand by anything with the Metzeler logo on it.
You blow on the wheel and spins for 3 revs.
I am pretty confident the Metzeler is correct down to 3.5 grams because that amount of weight is what made the difference between a perfect balance and a not perfect one.
The thing is with these is they find the initial balance point easily but when you are within 7grams or so it takes alot of patience and time to get it exactly right.
So expect to blow some time if your after perfect.
I have a thread over @ SH.org about balancers and tons of links to several different models out there.
<!--EDIT|BentValve
Reason for Edit: None given...|1119407249 -->
Cost is not the issue especially since I went down from a lowside @ 80mph possibly due to an out of balanced front rim....[/QUOTE]
Possibly balanced with a Rhythm DIY kit, right
J/K
Its all good (constructive) Bent. Thanks for sharing your results and input with us on the T/B you bought. Now people will have more than just one side to judge when they do decide to purchase a tire balancer for doing their own balancing.
The involvement we have here is what make's this site so great. I wish that some of us would stop arguing or taking other people's way of doing things in a negative way, if someone has another solution or ideal.
Possibly balanced with a Rhythm DIY kit, right
Its all good (constructive) Bent. Thanks for sharing your results and input with us on the T/B you bought. Now people will have more than just one side to judge when they do decide to purchase a tire balancer for doing their own balancing.
The involvement we have here is what make's this site so great. I wish that some of us would stop arguing or taking other people's way of doing things in a negative way, if someone has another solution or ideal.
suzuki4life
Banned
um a static balancer relies basically on gravity. What about friction? I have static balanced for years. I have had mine spin balanced for maybe 2 years. For high speed stuff, spin balancer feels allot better.
Just wondering, how does such low speed balancing help compensate for weight change due to tire growth? Remember that a tire has its highs and lows just like your wheel does. Once it grows at speed, the tire weights change a bit.
Go buy a Avon 250 and static balance it. Then take it out and ride it at speeds in incrediments of 10 mph from 40-100. It will "bump" at a certain speed if you static balance them.
BTW, if they die, i'm insured like any good shop should be. Too bad most aren't.
Go buy a Avon 250 and static balance it. Then take it out and ride it at speeds in incrediments of 10 mph from 40-100. It will "bump" at a certain speed if you static balance them.[/QUOTE]
Good info,G.
I take it you tried this out it out personally ?
BTW, if they die, i'm insured like any good shop should be. Too bad most aren't.[/QUOTE]
I with BentValve on this one, Gary. Why take chances with someone elses life feeling the way you do about static balancers ?
Good info,G.
BTW, if they die, i'm insured like any good shop should be. Too bad most aren't.[/QUOTE]
Rhythm,
Thanks for posting that link...I know we talked about that balancer along time ago in PM's but you didn't have any pics at the time.
You can really test your balance by quickly rotating the shaft back and forth about a 1/4" to break any friction in the wheel bearings. Once you're happy with the balance take the smallest weight you have in your kit and tape it to a random part of the wheel (test in several spots), if she drops to the 6 o'clock position each time you know you're balanced to within how many grams that weight is.
As far as gaining or losing weight at high speed? Um, yeah. Last time I was at Great America I got in the big BARREL ride that spins you around and the floor drops out...I lost and gained weight in places I never even knew I had! Luckly everything returned to normal when the ride stopped and I was totally balanced again.
Thanks for posting that link...I know we talked about that balancer along time ago in PM's but you didn't have any pics at the time.
You can really test your balance by quickly rotating the shaft back and forth about a 1/4" to break any friction in the wheel bearings. Once you're happy with the balance take the smallest weight you have in your kit and tape it to a random part of the wheel (test in several spots), if she drops to the 6 o'clock position each time you know you're balanced to within how many grams that weight is.
As far as gaining or losing weight at high speed? Um, yeah. Last time I was at Great America I got in the big BARREL ride that spins you around and the floor drops out...I lost and gained weight in places I never even knew I had! Luckly everything returned to normal when the ride stopped and I was totally balanced again.
Sorry to spoil the party, your highness.
Please forgive my rudeness.
Turbo-Torch
Professional Pilot
Group: Donating Member
Posts: 538
Avg posts/day:1.21
Joined: April 2004
Location: N.W. Indiana Posted: June 21 2005,23:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rhythm,
Thanks for posting that link...I know we talked about that balancer along time ago in PM's but you didn't have any pics at the time. [/QUOTE]
Anytime, Torch, its always good chattn with ya
Professional Pilot
Group: Donating Member
Posts: 538
Avg posts/day:1.21
Joined: April 2004
Location: N.W. Indiana Posted: June 21 2005,23:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rhythm,
Thanks for posting that link...I know we talked about that balancer along time ago in PM's but you didn't have any pics at the time. [/QUOTE]
Anytime, Torch, its always good chattn with ya
suzuki4life
Banned
Good info,G.
BTW, if they die, i'm insured like any good shop should be. Too bad most aren't.[/QUOTE]
I hate hondas too but I can't stop people from buying them.
I personally feel there are BETTER choices to balance a wheel. I NEVER said there was anything UNSAFE about static balancing. It is a very affordable option for some to choose.
suzuki4life
Banned
BTW I know of a few guys who NEVER balance their wheels and have ridden on them over 160 mph FOR YEARS NOW without a single problem. So the odds of an improperly balanced wheel causing a highside sounds pretty farfetched to me.
Similar threads
