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selberg · Oct 17, 2006

I used a 6*6*3 with my vr6 turbo setup. It was very responsive though it would heat up if beaten on consistently. I had a 3 gallon resevor though my line from the trunk to the fron was kinda small. I made 315whp at 8psi. With my air to air with everything else the same I made 278whp. That in itself had me convinced.

reaper0995 · Oct 17, 2006

um....but there is one thing though about W/A and A/A.

in thermal dynamic efficiency, a/a will ALWAYS have a higher potential to become more efficient than a w/a. this is because a w/a must heat exchange twice. so even if both processes were 80% eff, which would be hard to do, it would only take an a/a with an eff of 64% to match that, since the w/a would be 80% of the initail 80%. not saying tat an a/a will ALWAYS be better, but WILL have higher potential since there are fewer processes for which to exchange energy easier.

selberg · Oct 18, 2006

a/w allows for you to have below ambient temps though.

hawkwind racing · Oct 18, 2006

for my purpose the decision was very easy ,bike will be for only one purpose set a landspeed record and the one shot A/W had everything going for it ,heatsoak will not be a big problem as the water/ice will be changed every run , I have added a small radiator (oil cooler )in the circuit so it will cool the water while not on boost as well, running from the race track back to the pits and Im using methanol as my fuel, so the charge should be around ambient on boost

,well thats the plan anyway
gary

reaper0995 · Oct 18, 2006

(selberg @ Oct. 17 2006,22:14) a/w allows for you to have below ambient temps though.

physics wont allow it. the energy has to be displaced somehow, and water, without physically changing states, cannot do this.

see, an a/c in a car can make lower than ambient temps by taking a gas at ambient temp, then compressing it considerably. with it compressed, it condenses its energy content into a smaller volume, thus it has a greatly increased temperature. then, with its new high temp, 'cool' ambient air passes over it to bring the compressed gas closer to ambient temps. then, it is decompressed, but has lost energy that it had prior to compression, thus it is sub-ambient.

water does not change state, ie is not compressed, so it cannot acheive sub ambient temps. the only way water could achieve sub-ambient temps would be to have it evaporate over the cooler, thus drawing out its energy (heat). much like how sweat cools you down in the summer. but since the water is not being compressed NOR evaporating, it is theoritically impossible for this to happen. BUT, you can put ice in the resevior, and THAT will bring it lower than ambient, but not CONTINUOUSLY. that is, once the ice melts, then it will no longer be sub-ambient.

not saying that w/a is bad, but in the case of a continuously running system, it has a lower limit of potential than a/a. i will most likely be running one of these sooner or later on my bike, seeing that an a/a intercooler is $$$$, and w/a can be cheap (if you know how to weld aluminum....though i dont YET) because you can use a radiator for another bike or a remotely located one like the nlr systems once did.

reaper0995 · Oct 18, 2006

hawkwind, cool setup! havent seen one like that before. the only non-plenum based w/a cooler i had seen was frankenbusa's before yours. do you have a link to the complete buildup?

it also loks like you had your turbine side coated. did you have to have the turbine re-machined to fit or was there enough clearance without having to do anything fancy?

Gary Evans · Oct 18, 2006

(reaper0995 @ Oct. 18 2006,12:46)

(selberg @ Oct. 17 2006,22:14) a/w allows for you to have below ambient temps though.

Click to expand...

physics wont allow it. the energy has to be displaced somehow, and water, without physically changing states, cannot do this.

see, an a/c in a car can make lower than ambient temps by taking a gas at ambient temp, then compressing it considerably. with it compressed, it condenses its energy content into a smaller volume, thus it has a greatly increased temperature. then, with its new high temp, 'cool' ambient air passes over it to bring the compressed gas closer to ambient temps. then, it is decompressed, but has lost energy that it had prior to compression, thus it is sub-ambient.

water does not change state, ie is not compressed, so it cannot acheive sub ambient temps. the only way water could achieve sub-ambient temps would be to have it evaporate over the cooler, thus drawing out its energy (heat). much like how sweat cools you down in the summer. but since the water is not being compressed NOR evaporating, it is theoritically impossible for this to happen. BUT, you can put ice in the resevior, and THAT will bring it lower than ambient, but not CONTINUOUSLY. that is, once the ice melts, then it will no longer be sub-ambient.

not saying that w/a is bad, but in the case of a continuously running system, it has a lower limit of potential than a/a. i will most likely be running one of these sooner or later on my bike, seeing that an a/a intercooler is $$$$, and w/a can be cheap (if you know how to weld aluminum....though i dont YET) because you can use a radiator for another bike or a remotely located one like the nlr systems once did.

I assume his reference was to cooled water (ice or otherwise). Water or air the degree of cooling ingested air will be in relationship to time under boost. Either method will result in increased air temperature, as time under boost increased and both will in time reach equilibrium. Which is best for a given application will depend on the system and its use. For anything except land speed records or prolonged WOT simple water injection works quite well.

selberg · Oct 21, 2006

(reaper0995 @ Oct. 18 2006,12:46)

(selberg @ Oct. 17 2006,22:14) a/w allows for you to have below ambient temps though.

Click to expand...

BUT, you can put ice in the resevior, and THAT will bring it lower than ambient, but not CONTINUOUSLY. that is, once the ice melts, then it will no longer be sub-ambient.

ding, ding....

hawkwind racing · Oct 21, 2006

there is no magic in getting temps well below ambient for short durations( as in my case landspeed racing aprox 3 minutes at WOT) I've made a 'one shot ' water intercooler which will circulate a slurry of ice&water ,on top of that cooling which should be in excess of 100% Im using large amounts of methanol(alky) as my primary fuel, which will further aid cooling of the incomming charge, methanol has among other things a high ' latent heat of vaporisation ' ,I have a third way of cooling the charge by injecting a shot of nitrous oxide ,which I will use to combat the los of power by pressure loss through the turbo system , thats why I use lamda as I use another fuel for the nitrous C16 or toluene ,my theoretical figures for charge temps on average over the entire run ,will be at or below ambient .
for a street machine I would use an air /air intecooler
gary

hawkwind racing · Nov 26, 2006

TurboSN95 · Nov 26, 2006

After years of buying kits I gained enough knowledge on how to make my own, for my Mustang. Turbo kits are very simple but with the right quality parts, and a good coating, you can build it right. I would love to see someone build a twin turbo Hayabusa setup with two smaller turbos, that would be interesting to see how it performs.

PS - Those wacky Australians are crazy about turbos!!! I LOVE IT!!!

twowheelwerkz · Nov 26, 2006

heres a few picks of the kit i built although it is on a 1000 you can look at my projects @ twowheelwerkz.com for more pictures of the build

twowheelwerkz · Nov 26, 2006

another

twowheelwerkz · Nov 26, 2006

one more

twowheelwerkz · Nov 26, 2006

and last

hawkwind racing · Mar 17, 2007

Finally got it on the dyno ,but due to problems with the ECU ,at 8 or 9K rpm it fell over, cam and crank sensor errors ,so its back to the drawing board to sort it out , the fuel delevery was ok you can see where the secondaries start ,A/F nice and rich ,because of the ecu problem I ran it on the waste gate spring only which opens at 12 psi ,so when its sorted out it should make some serious power ( I hope )

cheers
Gary

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