Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name?

[IG.]

Yep, kids. Republicans, democrats - all of them are at fault to borrow in your name over many years. I remember, just a few years ago we crossed the $17 trillion mark. In case you don't have a calculator handy, confused by too many zeroes, or don't know that there are about 154 million working people in the US... $17 trillion / 154 million = approx. $110,000 per working person. And the borrowing keeps going... And the interest on the debt keeps growing. That's where a part of your federal taxes go as well as other hidden taxes and fees.

So, if you are a working person, or a couple you've got an invisible debt of $110k or $220k per your family. And if one of your children is already working, that's $330k of debt - on average.

At exactly the same time, China surpasses US in global production. Nice!

Midterm elections, Ferguson, New York, other past and future issues are a great distraction from more fundamental issues. Does anyone seriously believe that the US government will stop borrowing in your name, let alone somehow repay the debt it accumulated?

Hint: those who make decisions to borrow will be long gone and bear no responsibility. So, why would they change their behavior in the future. One possible scenario: when this mountain of debt comes crashing down destroying everything in its path, it will annihilate the very things we worked for so hard over the years. Those who are still alive will engage in blame game of national proportions... and the entire cycle will restart again.

There is only one way to stop this madness - you and people like you have to be in control of your governments. Now, you are not.

 

[GNBRETT]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

well thats wat happns wen half the country elects a moron to run their country. u sound surprised?

 

[fallenarch]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

First, the lions share of that debt was run up under Reagan, Bush H and Bush W. Our budget shortfalls are actually falling under Obama and we balanced the budget under Clinton. Who out there benifitted from the war in Iraq & Afsganistan (ok I'll answer that one, I did, my company made a fortune)? Just sayin.....

So we did actually give permission for the government to spend this money. It's called an election. Now you are going to say that the corporations control elections but that's BS. Lazy voters who only vote on false issues or don't vote at all are destroying this country, the corporations are just accepting our gift.

 

[mysql]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

well thats wat happns wen half the country elects a moron to run their country. u sound surprised?

I'm under no illusion that the debt would be any lower under a republican. Both parties use minor differences in policy in order to divide the population and keep us rooting for the home team.

If we saw it for what it actually is, a bunch of rich *******s dividing and conquering, we'd have some semblance of change on the horizon. But as long as the masses are placated, we'll sit around watching tv, earning just enough to be moderately happy and the status quo will remain.

 

[mysql]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

First, the lions share of that debt was run up under Reagan, Bush H and Bush W.

The debt has risen 70% under Obama (but as I said above, I doubt it matters who we had in office, it would have continued to rise regardless of party)

Our budget shortfalls are actually falling under Obama and we balanced the budget under Clinton.

Two things with Clinton:

1. He was president when we had the tech boom. That means massive increases in income tax and social security revenue.

2. Clinton's payments on debts were overstated and incorrect. Additionally, much of the payment of debt was a shell game - they were not really paid off at all.

A little more detail:

Social security - everyone knows it's a money pit, right? Wrong. SS is perfectly fine, or at least, would be fine for a lot longer than it is in the current state.

The issue is when the government takes money received from social security and uses it to buy government bonds. Those bonds are then used to pay off debts and fund other government programs.

It's really no different than someone getting a new credit card to pay off an old one. You still owe that money, but instead of paying off now, its now owed as future social security benefits.

In fact, moving debt to social security is a double bonus - don't need to pay off debts owed now, AND social security isn't considered part of the federal deficit, so it looks like you're getting a balanced budget:

http://www.politifact.com/new-hamps...-security-doesnt-contribute-national-debt-sa/

 

[GNBRETT]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

since Obami has been in office the national debt has gone up $7 TRILLION!!!!!!!!! that is more than the debt increased under all U.S. presidents from george washington through bill clinton combined. its also more debt than was accumulated in the first 227 years of this nation's existence from 1776 to 2003 when this MORON took office.

make all the excuses you want but Obami didn't want to fail as POTUS so he thought we cud just buy our way out of our debt crisis. thats why you don't elect a guy with the least amount of credentials to run a country which requires one to have a fundamental understanding of finances for which he obviously does not have.

he was more concerned about entitlement programs then running a country efficiently..... smh

 

[IG.]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

Many good points, but you guys miss the main reason. Yes, we did elect this and prior presidents, but we did not automatically agree with getting so much into debt.

Like so many other things you disagree with during a term of a given politician, you have zero power individually and collectively to prevent such politician to do whatever they want (within a wide range) while at the same time completely ignoring what you think about it. Don't you see that something else needs to change in the system?

This has nothing to do with a particular party, and has everything to do with how governments operate in general - mostly uncontrollable by The People on a continuous basis. Don't you see that 'electing' is not enough to make sure the governments truly work for you?

 

[Tony Nitrous]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

Im not sure what the answer is but i do know that 10 years a go i looked around
the world for a new home and glad i chose where i did.
Australia seems to have come out of the GFC and the whole Rich v Poor and National
debt thing better than most.

AUSTRALIANS are per capita the wealthiest people in the world on a median basis, according to a report released today by Zurich-based bank Credit Suisse.

Our wealth is also more evenly distributed across the population, the report said, although we have a well above average reliance on real estate which forms 59 per cent of gross household assets. That's second only to Norway.

The report found that our mean wealth per adult is just over $US400,000 each, second only to Switzerland, and that there are 1.12 million people in Australia classed as US dollar millionaires, although that number includes all net assets including housing and superannuation.

REPORT: CS Global Wealth

The median wealth number of Australia is $US219,505 per person, the highest in the world. The median number in any range is the middle one whereas the mean is the average of all. The fact that Australia tops the median number is a reflection of the fact that Australian wealth is more equally distributed that in some other countries such as Switzerland, said David McDonald, chief investment strategist Australia for Credit Suisse Private Banking.

''The top ten per cent of Australians own 50 per cent of the wealth," he said, "which compares with the top 10 per cent around the world owning an average of 86 per cent and the top ten per cent in the US owning 74 per cent."

The report, compiled out of Europe, said that there are 1.76 million Australians who are in the top one per cent of global wealth holders, accounting for 3.8 per cent of that group despite this country having only 0.4 per cent of the world's adult population.

 

[IG.]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

Ah, Tony Nitrous... they guy I was looking for... I will get to this in a second....

I am sure Australia is a great country, and maybe one day I will visit. However, leaving the US is simply not an option for most of us, and besides most of us really love this greatest country in the world. We just have to figure it out, and fix it... or die trying, LOL. I personally escaped from the former Soviet Union as life there was unbearable. So, once the opportunity to leave appeared, I left. This was challenging, long, and painful experience. It's really hard to leave everyone and everything you know behind and move thousands of miles away.


...now, the reason I was looking for you, Tony, is... that you've been a bad boy, Tony! A really bad boy. Bashing Foot Anchors all over the net. It's a small world, Tony. One day when you are out, I will show up at your house, find your bike and weld foot anchors to it. Of course, I will hide a camera to capture your surprise, and will post it on the net. The caption will read "TONY NITROUS: I bash foot anchors everywhere because I want to be the only one who can take turns faster".

Have a nice day, mate.

Oh, if you decide to order a kit, let me know and I will give you a good discount.

 

[TallTom]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

You guys are making too big a deal out of this debt. I have lived through these cycles. And now, the new currency we have is oil. We can pump our way out of this debt. I suspect you will see that in the next administration, assuming its a Republican one. 17 Trillion seems like a lot, and it is if we had no way out. If we were in such trouble, nobody would loan us money. We can get more money loaned to us in a day. (Not saying we should) We are still the safest strongest economy there is. If we go down the world follows.

 

[ZRXMAX]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

We have some interesting worldviews here and its fun to expound on this subject.

1st of all, their is no safe place in the "global economy" as somebody already mentioned. 2nd, our government is under the

control of bankers that keep our debit card intact. Consider that nobody audits the fed... well, why is that? I will tell you why...

its a paper tiger and owned by the major banks in this country. Our former politicians, current, and future have little interest

in paying off the debt. Besides, the debt is really a prommisary note gauranteed by us. Us? Yeah, YOU ! So, why should

they worry? Their not going to fix anything. If anything big happens where their is a "reset" of the currency it will get ugly

when a new currency shows up and your money takes a big hit.

When you were born your foot prints were taken at the hospital before your feet ever touched the ground. Then, your SS

number was recorded and you became "incorporated"... but... you never got the document saying you were a corporation.

No matter how you slice it your were sold just like a commodity on the exchange shortly after you were born.

Surely by now you have written me off as a whack job... doesn't matter... the truth is the truth.

The Federal Reserve Act passed under Woodrow Wilson was the death nell for Americans having a say in fiscal policy.

You have a private corporation... "the Fed" raising and lowering interest rates and controlling the money supply.

I don't want to sound to ignorant here, however, whomever controls the money controls everything else through

the unseen power of currency maniplation. Why do you think other countries are prone to devaluing their currency?

We ( the USA ) gets upset with China and others when they devalue their currency... then... we follow the same path.

Every country wants the trading advantage of a lesser value currency as compared to whomever their trading with.

Just google currency wars.

 

[Tony Nitrous]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

I had a lot of love for the UK, and some good friends there.
Wasn't willing to spend my life trying to fix something that i was vastly outnumbered against.

I looked at several other country's before I moved to Australia.
Selfish, in that I did what was best for me, I wasn't willing to waste my life fighting a losing battle to rebuild the UK.

We do get some US news such as finance / Ferguson / troops overseas / Gun Laws etc etc.
Whilst I have no desire to live in the US it's certainly interesting to watch it change and see
what direction it takes on certain issues.

 

[jellyrug]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

My opinion is that the standard of living in Australia is only high in terms of currency numbers. The standard of living in the good o'l USA in terms of material goods is much higher than Australia, being our houses, our cars, our roads, our toys etc.

 

[Tony Nitrous]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

Some folk i know in the US certainly have a high standard of living and some nice toys,
but I think there is a greater rich / poor divide than here. We have a quite small population
of around 60,000,000 but as the report I quoted above says, the AVERAGE $ per capita is higher,
and a large % of assets and $ is owned by more than the few at the top.

It's an interesting point jellyrug, as what a $ buys in each country is waaaaaay different,
a new Busa at $16,500 or more and a nice house near a city at $750,000 is quite normal here,
so with a 1 to 1 $ exchange an average Aussie should be cashed up if he sold up and went to the US.

 

[IG.]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

You guys are making too big a deal out of this debt. I have lived through these cycles. And now, the new currency we have is oil. We can pump our way out of this debt. I suspect you will see that in the next administration, assuming its a Republican one. 17 Trillion seems like a lot, and it is if we had no way out. If we were in such trouble, nobody would loan us money. We can get more money loaned to us in a day. (Not saying we should) We are still the safest strongest economy there is. If we go down the world follows.

Tom, this is flawed logic. There is first time for everything. Saying it hasn't happened for quite some time, and based on that saying it won't happen is simply illogical.

Unlike credit card debt which is a relatively short term affair before a person is in trouble, a country's debt (and especially for a country who is the leader of the world), such period can be quite long. But make no mistake, there is an expiration date. I wouldn't be surprised if either administration quietly pays to those writers who "explain" to the public that our debt is meaningless.

This is exactly like the stock market crash. Others keep investing... until the first sign of trouble, and then all of a sudden the sentiment changes overnight, nobody is investing and everyone wants their money back.

And if you think Republicans will reduce debt... I don't remember them doing it in the past, why would they do in the future?

We are in big trouble already! Anyone who doesn't see it, is very naive. I am predicting that first signs of trouble will come sooner than you think. Because there really nothing could be done quickly, the government will resort to the easiest thing - printing money, effectively devaluing yours and everybody else's hard earnings.

 

[jellyrug]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

Understanding Forex and the markets, the debt situation is just a sign of the times in terms of how currency behaves.

Europe is in bigger trouble than the US.

Japan is in bigger trouble than the US.

China and India have their currencies undervalued by a huge margin, but they are in a catch 22, as they are dependent on Western consumption for their GDP. In the mean time their domestic economies are stimulated and slowly growing.

As Tony posted a above regarding Australia, by the time an average house over here, close to the city costs $750,000 and a Gen II Busa costs over $16,000 the debt will start reversing. It will mean tightening our belts, no more cheap goods from Asia and some manufacturing returning to the US.

 

[IG.]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

The US debt will NOT start reversing. Someone has to make a decision to 1) cut spending somewhere to a such a degree that annual deficit turns into a significant surplus; 2) decide to use the surplus to reduce debt... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Just watch.

"It's not their money - so they will spend with ease", and continue doing so. Again, it's very naive to think that politicians are capable of making such decisions. Sure, they will talk about it, and give 100 excuses how now is not the time... Or, will reduce by a minuscule amount just to put a check mark on their record.

 

[TallTom]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

Tom, this is flawed logic. There is first time for everything. Saying it hasn't happened for quite some time, and based on that saying it won't happen is simply illogical.

Unlike credit card debt which is a relatively short term affair before a person is in trouble, a country's debt (and especially for a country who is the leader of the world), such period can be quite long. But make no mistake, there is an expiration date. I wouldn't be surprised if either administration quietly pays to those writers who "explain" to the public that our debt is meaningless.

This is exactly like the stock market crash. Others keep investing... until the first sign of trouble, and then all of a sudden the sentiment changes overnight, nobody is investing and everyone wants their money back.

And if you think Republicans will reduce debt... I don't remember them doing it in the past, why would they do in the future?

We are in big trouble already! Anyone who doesn't see it, is very naive. I am predicting that first signs of trouble will come sooner than you think. Because there really nothing could be done quickly, the government will resort to the easiest thing - printing money, effectively devaluing yours and everybody else's hard earnings.

Maybe its flawed. All I know is in my lifetime I have heard us screaming about how massive or debt was, no less than 3 times. Everyone screamed when Japan was buying up America etc. Reagan OMG the debt he was killing us with.....etc etc. We were spending more than we taking in. The sky was falling.

Each time we overcame it. We managed to get back on our feet. Rather than make this a political thread, I'd just ask that we review history. Each political term, the number seemed HUGE to us. Yet we can see that we can manage it. I am not in any way suggesting that our debt is a good thing. Nor am I suggesting that our political leaders have been good. But we have faced this same issue time and time again

I just want to keep it in perspective. Lets look at history of our debt.

If you believe that the results will track the same as history, then we are at our worst and will reel it in over the next decade or so. If not, what will you or I do to change its course that will be any different than what we did in history? You can propose an overhaul of our government all you like. And I'd support it IF it made any real difference in my life and my time spent on this planet. Overhauling our system of government will happen more slowly than what we already know we can do with our present system of government. We as a country have had a debt since the Revolutionary War.

Each generation vows the next generation is doomed. Each of our previous generations never felt the next generation could make this place better, and so far in our 200+ year history, we've managed pretty well with a few down decades overall.

We need to produce more (we are getting back on track there) and spend less (we are getting back on track there). It won't happen in a year. We didn't get here in a year. But in 200+ years, a relatively short period of time as economies go, we have become the worlds economic engine and have never failed the world or ourselves. Maybe this time we will. IDK. But we have history on our side and we have a world that depends on us to figure it out. Farther back in that history is we fled and started a new country with a new economy.

I don't agree with the way things are going and may not rely on this country to suit my personal needs, but as the world goes, I am not real worried about us. If I don't like this place, I and whoever feels the same way, will go somewhere else we like better.

Nitrous chose Australia. And he has flourished there. In 1987, I remember being offered a life transfer there invited by the Aus government. I kick myself for not taking them up on that offer now. Fortunately we as Americans still have the ability to have free will and live where we like. Including somewhere else if we want.

No matter how much I have tried to make a difference in my leadership and its policies here, it is BY FAR way easier to just take care of me. This place will not turn around in my lifetime, but it will turn around. I have watched this pendulum swing back and forth 2 and a half times now. Its about to swing through the rest of the cycle again.

The world depends on it to.

 

[jellyrug]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

The US debt will NOT start reversing. Someone has to make a decision to 1) cut spending somewhere to a such a degree that annual deficit turns into a significant surplus; 2) decide to use the surplus to reduce debt... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Just watch.

"It's not their money - so they will spend with ease", and continue doing so. Again, it's very naive to think that politicians are capable of making such decisions. Sure, they will talk about it, and give 100 excuses how now is not the time... Or, will reduce by a minuscule amount just to put a check mark on their record.

While spending is outrageous, especially the Pentagon, it is actually better than past years by some margin. The problem is income. Trying to fix the latter hits our pockets in terms of tax, not a popular decision for both parties. The real issue is that our Western currencies are over valued, that will be rectified in time to come. No one will make that decision, Forex traders will make it happen and it will be pretty painful at the onset, but repair itself over time.

This a little more than one year old, but gives a very brief insight of some money system features.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=25161

In short, the difference in concept between your personal household debt and the Fed is very simple. They have machines to print more money to pay bills, you don't.

Finally, as long Europe is struggling, Asia gives their labor and goods away for almost free in comparison, we do the job on the world stage for the United Nations, as they are pretty useless and we have a strong military, most currency investors will still buy the Dollar, meaning it will remain strong due to demand and the debt will remain high. As soon as Asia develops strong domestic consumption and their currencies strengthen, it will be a different ball game all together.

I think we all know that once the economy can sustain higher interest rates, which is where we are currently heading, debt matters will improve as well.

 

[IG.]

Re: Have you ever agreed for US govt. to accumulate $18 trillion of debt in your name

I understand that a country's finances are a bit different than an individual's debt, and there are many tools available to temporarily mitigate the problem. However, there is a 800 lb gorilla in the room, and one cannot ignore it. No matter what financial instruments, in the long run they cannot compensate for a growing mountain of debt.

There are plenty of charts around, and here is one below. I see no indication that somehow US national debt will go down, no matter what party.

Don't you get it? Only you, me, and millions of other people have the power to change where it all goes.