Hard Cornering


snbusa

Registered
#1
Put in 243 local miles today a lot of which were cornering in the woods near me on great twisties. Rode with my buddy George who has a sweet stock black gen 1. He's an awesome rider and although I was able to stay pretty close with him most of the time he went around me whenever I started ahead of him. It showed me how much improvement I can aspire to. We both went off the road...into soft dirt and had slowed to just a few mph by the time we went off and both stayed up. George went too hot into an off camber corner hit his rear brake to hard and skidded for maybe fifty feet and went off road. Although I had the corner made he swerved across my path and I had to go off road to avoid running into him. Just goes to show even a really good rider like him can make a mistake. You see it all the time in the pros because they are on the edge. It was good that we were on very remote roads with no side streets. I learned a lot today and most importantly I realized that I can take my corners faster by staying on the gas further into the turn and by being smoother on the throttle. I'm looking forward to learning a lot more. I'm glad we handled our mishap well and we went over the whole thing with a fine tooth comb to see where we both went wrong. It was a little scary but there are risks involved in order to improve.
 

Busa1166

Donating Member
Registered
#2
glad you are having fun, may want to invest in some track time because sadly on the public roads things like sand leaves or even rocks in the road like this one can bring you or worse some innocent person you sharing that rode with into a world of hurt.


at least he was running in straight line catch that rock in a turn different kind of end to the riding experience on that day.


Ride to live:thumbsup:
 
#4
Track time, for the both of you. "Really good rider", "Awesome rider", yet he fails by exercising good judgement for himself and more importantly you by riding above and beyond his limit on a public road. You, with little experience(or so it has led me to believe) and your buddy George are accidents waiting to happen.
Tongue lashing, brow beating, constructive criticism, call it what you will. You need to learn to ride your own ride and not keep up with the Jones's especially if they lead you off the road.
Lastly, Pros riding near the edge are trained to in a controlled environment with proper gear. Not going to even get into the conditions/variables of a track setting compared to the street(Long Island Suburbs).
Harsh, yes. I have seen way to many people in your situation wind up in really bad places and ways. Labrocha and I just visited a scene of a fatality where an"experienced rider" made a terrible mistake, which cost him his life leaving four children fatherless and a woman heartbroken and alone. Good luck and be careful.
 

Tufbusa

Track Coach / TufPoodle Coach
Registered
#5
George went too hot into an off camber corner hit his rear brake to hard and skidded for maybe fifty feet and went off road. Although I had the corner made he swerved across my path and I had to go off road to avoid running into him. Just goes to show even a really good rider like him can make a mistake. You see it all the time in the pros because they are on the edge.
After George scares the p iss out of himself in a corner, puckers up so tight you couldn't drive a thumb tack in his a$$ with a ten pound hammer, jumps on the rear brake and leaves a "Tire Snake" as he stands his bike up and runs off the corner, I certainly wouldn't call him an advanced rider. It appears both of you could use some serious help in judgment. Your choice of following another rider so close you couldn't avoid a collision when he had an issue without hitting the dirt was very poor judgment on your part.

Good Luck on your journey as you climb the skills ladder. It can be a long an treacherous journey. You will reach the upper levels much faster and safer with track time and instruction.
 

Blanca BusaLess

Suffers from PBSD
Donating Member
Registered
#6
Be careful out there as you say because as it is rural in setting it will also take rescue quite some time to get there.
 

skydivr

Jumps from perfectly good Airplanes
Donating Member
#7
PLEASE go do a trackday, with or without George. It MAY save your life; it WILL make you a better, safer, more knowledgeable rider.

And get your foot off that rear brake!
 

snbusa

Registered
#8
I agree whole heartedly with all your advice and take no offense...how could I? You only have my best interests at heart; I would be a fool to think otherwise. I am set up to do two days with the California Superbike School in August and may do a day or two with the club racing that goes on there (NJMP) before then.

I will be careful and show George the comments that were given to us. Thank you.
 

skydivr

Jumps from perfectly good Airplanes
Donating Member
#9
I agree whole heartedly with all your advice and take no offense...how could I? You only have my best interests at heart; I would be a fool to think otherwise. I am set up to do two days with the California Superbike School in August and may do a day or two with the club racing that goes on there (NJMP) before then.

I will be careful and show George the comments that were given to us. Thank you.
CSS is a great (yet very expensive) school but you will definintely learn some of what you now may not know. I'd recommend against any "racing" until I had some instruction FIRST. Please let us know your perception of what we are telling you after attending the school. Just be prepared not to have any money as the trackday bug is hard to beat!
 

dadofthree

Seasoned Beef
Donating Member
Registered
#10
glad you are having fun, may want to invest in some track time because sadly on the public roads things like sand leaves or even rocks in the road like this one can bring you or worse some innocent person you sharing that rode with into a world of hurt.


at least he was running in straight line catch that rock in a turn different kind of end to the riding experience on that day.


Ride to live:thumbsup:
That was the rear ....... front, game over
 

snbusa

Registered
#11
I'm going to agree that we were reckless out there and although this is the first and maybe the last time I have done any racing type riding out there in the sense that we passed each other, its probable that I will ride very hard out there again since especially now that I know whats possible for me. It is a good place that it has soft shoulders and any trees are set back off the road. I'm not expecting to go off road riding again. Well here I go. I will report before and after the CSS experience and I'm sure I'll get addicted to track riding. Not as an excuse but for simple fact the track is 5 1/2 hours away. Thanks
 

snbusa

Registered
#12
In the twisties I was totally off today; I was making all sorts of bonehead mistakes and was completely out of sync. All the admonitions were going through my head like "innocent bystanders" and "things going badly" and other ideas like that. I was torn between whether I should be doing this at all to begin with and its a personal decision that no one has to know anything about except me. I was also tired as I've put about 1000mi on my bike in the past few days or so. My wife isn't too crazy about that so I'm catching heat from more than one source about my bike and the way I ride. I'm going to take it easy for a while and go through the turns easily without feeling like I'm on the edge. Keith Code talks about how a reduced level of intensity produces more improvement than riding at the limit. That will help me regain my confidence and get me back into the space where I'm taking good lines and doing other technical aspects of cornering correctly.
Well, again, thanks for helping me realize I may have been heading for serious trouble. I will most likely take a track day or two soon to test some of the intense desire I'm having to go very fast. I'll also have the opportunity to take a club beginners class. That should help quite a bit and help me decide where I want be with my riding on public roads. I know I'm not the only person on the org who rides hard on the road but I'm one of the few who writes about it, especially in detail. I'm surprised that members who ride hard on the road didn't chime in. Maybe I'm mistaken and there are not that many who do ride hard on public roads. Few members would want to open themselves up to scrutiny in this realm for obvious reasons and maybe some feel its just not anybody else's business. I'm often concerned about the safety and legal implications if something goes wrong and also about the more simple issue of keeping my license to drive. Maybe this has been discussed before and/or maybe its deserves its own post in another section of the forums but I'd really like to hear more about what members thoughts are regarding these things, including some of those who feel like its okay to ride hard on public roads.
 

skydivr

Jumps from perfectly good Airplanes
Donating Member
#13
I rode a lot harder on the road BEFORE I started doing trackdays...I still ride fairly fast, but now I sit in the back and watch for stupid stuff, someone will always rise to the occasion to entertain me. It's easy to get sucked into it - and I have, and I crashed....

Which Code books do you have? I think TWT 2 is better than TWT 1...I have them in .pdf form, by the way....

And the TWT2 movie is pretty good once you get past some of the acting.

Just about the first drill you will do on their first day is: ride the ENTIRE session without TOUCHING ANY brakes....
 

sixpack577

Top Gun
Registered
#14
Riding hard is whatever hard is for your ability.
My friends and I do/did, nothing like we used to be. Old age(mid 30's:laugh:)and kids have seriously slowed us down.
We are fortunate to have countless miles of great curves with little if any traffic. A lot of it has no side roads or driveways either. As well as a half mile straight stretch way out in the cut at a dead end for stunts. We also stay in our lane. We drag knees on occasion.
The highways here are practically empty aside from work flow traffic at certain times of morning and afternoon. Empty road makes for mile+ plus wheelies...with no one in danger other than us.
We were young and foolish once, and thank GOD we didn't kill someone. Fortunantly that's been many years ago.
It all really depends on your surroundings. Can you see what's coming, and a from a long way?
Are there no other cars on the road? Are you sure?
Are you mentally prepared to crash? To die?
Do you panic when you hit gravel, or when an animal runs out in front of you? Panic will kill you.
I can say that personally I have the same state of mind regardless of my riding situation, even under pressure. Not bragging, but that's just how I'm wired. I don't tense up, ever. I'm always relaxed.
That has saved me from countless close calls, of my own fault, and the endless supply of idiot drivers out there.
I had one good 70ish mph lowside through a sharp curve. Low 40's outside, sand all over the road, 3' snow banks in the ditch, and riding like an idiot for the conditions. I rode away, I actually liked it. I am well versed in crashing from MX, and am highly skilled at it:laugh:
There are right and wrong ways to crash too, learn the difference:laugh:
Staying relaxed helps keep you alive, just like a drunk driver in a crash, they don't tense up and statistically have much less injuries because of it.
Panic and stress will kill you quickly on a bike, and most everywhere else in life for that matter.
Have you ever seen a bad motorcycle crash happen, and the aftermath? Ever had broken bones and serious injuries?
Do you know your limits? I'de say you do from your posts. A wise man finds and knows his limits.
You have to push them at some point to improve, but is the risk worth the gain to you? Is it your risk only, or whoever else is on the road too?
I've been riding for 24 years(I'm 36). I started on dirtbikes, did a couple seasons of 250B mx, did a little drag racing(not really my thing), been wheelieing since bmx bicycles, and have been street riding for 18 years. Not saying I'm good either, just at a level that I'M happy with...ME. I'm not competing with anyone...at least anymore.
I like to stunt and wheelie. I like to drag knees. I know my limits. I rarely push them anymore(occasionally I have to school some young punk:laugh:). I no longer endanger anyone other than myself, and the guys I ride with, but they know the deal.
Ride your own ride. My Dad told me when I was very young, "It doesn't matter how tough you are, because somewhere there's always going be someone just as tough or tougher waiting for you".
That applies to most things in life. Who are you competing against? Hopefully only yourself.
Take a step back, look at the big picture, ask yourself the tough questions.
If you have a place to street ride and not endanger anyone else, know your limits, and accept the risks...then have at it. Otherwise, you need to make some serious changes.
Progress slowly, take it easy, if you practice then gradually your skill will improve.
Everyone makes mistakes, regardless of skill level.
Accept that everyone has a bad day now and then, and know when you're having one. Don't ride, or turn around and go home.
Finally, know who you're riding with.
I've been rear ended by another bike, fortunately for me the damage to me and my bike were minimal.
The other guys bike was totaled. He had some serious rash and shredded palms. The one day he didn't wear his gloves too.
Ride like you're invisible, assume everyone is trying to hit you, relax, ride your own ride, and most of all...enjoy it. Tommorrow is promised to no one, but try to live to be there.:beerchug:
 

ZRXMAX

Registered
#15
Amen brother ! What becomes noticeable after years of riding is how your skills go up and down depending on how much you have been riding and how well your dialed into your bike. Other factors like who your riding with can play a part in my level of confidence at times. I have ridden with people that can't ride and it is nerve wracking to follow them.
 

snbusa

Registered
#16
Thanks for taking the time sixpack. That is the kind of straight forward experience I was looking to hear about. I have nothing to add and plenty to learn. As above. Amen Brother.
 
#17
the one thing you learn when riding hard on the road is keep your gaps relevant to the speed....simple by having to take avoiding action you were too close and it was pure luck that you stayed on the bikes....a fraction of a second later on the brakes and you'd have had soft dirt for lunch...if not hospital food.
Fun as it is to play with mates in the twisties, a public road has few if any soft crash areas...trees, walls and other vehicles are all solid compared to a bike and you will always comes off worse.
Get on a track and with a pro rider who will assess you and then tutor you in the areas that you need help with....might cost a bit but its a lot cheaper than new panels.
 

snbusa

Registered
#19
Skydvr...I have the Code books including The Soft Science of Road Racing which is kind of a workbook. I'm also on the Cornering Forums that are attached to the California Superbike School website. They are very interesting and contain many many Keith Code unpublished articles. I think I'm going to get the interactive CD and the book on cd. I've read the book a few times and watch the dvd plenty...both of which are available free on the internet in pdf and utube. I'd like to have the book on cd as it would be another form to absorb and since I find his approach so helpful. He mentions the no brakes training in Soft Science and I've experimented with it and have gotten to the point where I use my brakes very sparingly when I practice cornering. The result to this point is I need to stay on the gas deeper into the turn as invariably I end up going too slow through the turn. That's ok for now but the point is the no brakes approach is very helpful and interesting when you find out that you've been charging the turn and wasting lots of energy and time. It seems like maybe you've been to the School.
 

brpo

Registered
#20
Running off road = Fail

Slow it down! Sounds like you were approaching your limit on roads you were not intimately familiar with... Your buddy exceeded his skill level, but more importantly wasn't demonstrating good riding sense.

Peace
 

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