Government mandated birth control

[VaBusa]

But it IS you that attempted to discredit Vabs' personal experience when, no matter what article you may read, cannot possibly know what it is to want/need birth control.

He won't see it that way J. Steph feels, and I truly believe this, that he's looking out for the best interests of women as a whole and that it falls in line with his ideals for the type of gov't he wants in place, one where healthcare is available for everyone. My problem with it all is that this isn't a healthcare issue. I don't say that as a republican because I'm not one. I'm also no dem...I do wish like hell he'd just address the one reason I'm against it (because it's an elective option with other alternatives in place and not necessarily needed for most women's health), but instead all I'm getting is articles written by who-cares, all the vein of "No, really, you need this!"

The part he can't possibly understand is just how condescending it is to even talk about how pregnancy is what keeps women from being equals. Trust me, there are plenty of other very legit things going on in the work force that keep some women down, but the the lack of free BC to help keep those pesky kids away isn't one of them. This entire line of conversation makes me think there are those here that think women aren't capable of making sound, rational decisions to better their lives, hence we need to dole out meds so they don't get knocked up. As a single Mom of two with a career, I can only laugh and realize that, quite honestly, an opinion is just that and will never take the place of personal experiences...not just mine, but of all women. I'm definitely not one of those women that feel I need the gov't to mandate what's best for me to get ahead, but I'm also keenly aware that there is a segment of the female population that feel they're owed this freebie and I feel they'll use any reason they can find to get it. They too likely won't address that the freebie they want is an ELECTIVE option for not getting pregnant. My take on that is they're too damn lazy to figure out the alternatives. I'm OK with knowing this and not being able to get him to see my side at all.

 

[VaBusa]

Pick a noble cause!!! Free cancer screenings for all! How about if you have cancer and your doctor says "You need this treatment" but your insurance company denies it until you've spent years undergoing all of the other crap that doesn't work, THEN you get the one that would have helped years before, the insurance companies are told "NO! A patient has the right to the correct treatment the first time around, not when it's too late!"

I think that's the saddest part of all of this - this is no noble cause. It's so pathetic a cause when stacked up against the TRUE NEEDS out there in the realm of healthcare...

 

[raydog]

I just read this entire conversation again and am amazed at the level of temperance Dino has shown. Where is his attempt to attack anyone? In one of his posts he makes a saterical comment, the comment was misinterpreted and he apologized for it anyway! I do not believe being a male excludes anyone from having a learned opinion on any social issue, including the use of contraception for females. I have values on the subject that are grounded in my life experience with my wife and two daughters, and the interaction I've had with many female friends on the subject. I am the only one who has made negative mention of the far right, Limbaugh and the current Repub Presidential candidates....blame or challenge me but to censor Dino because he expresses a point of view and actually provides references? And Mr. Brown, I'm kind of surprised that you feel the need to throw up comments like "unassailable position of righteousness"? Because he is participating in a contentious discussion?
I wonder how this discussion would evolve if all were sitting by a fire in a lodge somewhere, would the levels of inflexibility be like this? Doyle

 

[captain]

I just read this entire conversation again and am amazed at the level of temperance Dino has shown. Where is his attempt to attack anyone? In one of his posts he makes a saterical comment, the comment was misinterpreted and he apologized for it anyway! I do not believe being a male excludes anyone from having a learned opinion on any social issue, including the use of contraception for females. I have values on the subject that are grounded in my life experience with my wife and two daughters, and the interaction I've had with many female friends on the subject. I am the only one who has made negative mention of the far right, Limbaugh and the current Repub Presidential candidates....blame or challenge me but to censor Dino because he expresses a point of view and actually provides references? And Mr. Brown, I'm kind of surprised that you feel the need to throw up comments like "unassailable position of righteousness"? Because he is participating in a contentious discussion?
I wonder how this discussion would evolve if all were sitting by a fire in a lodge somewhere, would the levels of inflexibility be like this? Doyle

Doyle! How dare you bring logic to the table... (I couldn't stand not to say it)... This would actually be much easier around a fire I think because we all could speak a lot easier then trying to type out what we are trying to convey... Doyle I have become a little cynical and I am the absolute biggest "Not Fan" of Dino... He has been banned at least two other times and just keeps coming back for more... I will try to find the thread a few years ago where he wanted us to all pay for I think it was Healthcare for Illegal immigrants... How did it go again Dino? "They are Humans you know".. Until Steph decides to pony up on his ideals himself and start showing some conviction I personally don't want to hear anything from him about how I should spend my tax dollars for his cause...

HOWEVER

Doyle you are a valued member... you know I respect your opinion because you not only say it, you live your convictions... If memory serves me correctly Dino held a govt job yet hates the govt... How backasswards is that?

So, when you have someone that lives what they speak it holds a lot of value, when they just keep on giving my money away because that's what he feels it just doesn't seem right....

Flame away!

 

[VaBusa]

I just read this entire conversation again and am amazed at the level of temperance Dino has shown. Where is his attempt to attack anyone? In one of his posts he makes a saterical comment, the comment was misinterpreted and he apologized for it anyway! I do not believe being a male excludes anyone from having a learned opinion on any social issue, including the use of contraception for females. I have values on the subject that are grounded in my life experience with my wife and two daughters, and the interaction I've had with many female friends on the subject. I am the only one who has made negative mention of the far right, Limbaugh and the current Repub Presidential candidates....blame or challenge me but to censor Dino because he expresses a point of view and actually provides references? And Mr. Brown, I'm kind of surprised that you feel the need to throw up comments like "unassailable position of righteousness"? Because he is participating in a contentious discussion?
I wonder how this discussion would evolve if all were sitting by a fire in a lodge somewhere, would the levels of inflexibility be like this? Doyle

I haven't attacked anyone, and never did I say men don't have an opinion, but I will say that unless you've been personally trying all the various BC options out there and paying for them both with and without insurance, perhaps women have a bit more insight than you might. We all have skin, but that's about the end of the similiarities when it comes to talking about BC unless you care to share how condoms work for you and that you want insurance companies to give them out just because you're sick of paying for 'em yourself. Are lack of condoms keeping you down? No pun intended TMI...my beef is with Fluke's flawed #'s on what BC costs in a year, and it seems that's a big basis for her concerns over the need to provide it to all for free. I'm telling you, those numbers are greatly exaggerated and represent BC meds most don't try anyway because there are generics on the market that cost pennies and provide the same benefits. Lastly, this is not a healthcare debate, it's a choice a woman can make as an option to prevent pregnancy. At no point in time do I see the government's need to step in and mandate that insurance companies provide, for free, BC for those that choose to not seek alternatives if $$ is truly their issue.

 

[Mr Brown]

I just read this entire conversation again and am amazed at the level of temperance Dino has shown. Where is his attempt to attack anyone? In one of his posts he makes a saterical comment, the comment was misinterpreted and he apologized for it anyway! I do not believe being a male excludes anyone from having a learned opinion on any social issue, including the use of contraception for females. I have values on the subject that are grounded in my life experience with my wife and two daughters, and the interaction I've had with many female friends on the subject. I am the only one who has made negative mention of the far right, Limbaugh and the current Repub Presidential candidates....blame or challenge me but to censor Dino because he expresses a point of view and actually provides references? And Mr. Brown, I'm kind of surprised that you feel the need to throw up comments like "unassailable position of righteousness"? Because he is participating in a contentious discussion?
I wonder how this discussion would evolve if all were sitting by a fire in a lodge somewhere, would the levels of inflexibility be like this? Doyle

Doyle, I suppose that my indignation is based not only on his posts in this discussion, but also on debates he has been involved in before. He has a tendency to pretend to occupy higher moral ground when he is disagreed with. As you know I thoroughly enjoy a contentious discussion, but to argue what's best for a woman reproductively with a woman who is clearly capable of expressing her own case is practically the dictionary of condescension. As men we can hear all about what it's like to be a woman, yet we can never fully understand. We can empathize, but not sympathize.
I for one would love to have this or any other discussion in person, I doubt my opinion would be stated any differently.

 

[captain]

but to argue what's best for a woman reproductively with a woman who is clearly capable of expressing her own case is practically the dictionary of condescension.

But have you ever seen her pink bike? If you knew how she painted her bike you might just want to think again about speaking for her

 

[VaBusa]

But have you ever seen her pink bike? If you knew how she painted her bike you might just want to think again about speaking for her

 

[Mr Brown]

But have you ever seen her pink bike? If you knew how she painted her bike you might just want to think again about speaking for her

 

[VaBusa]

*crickets*

Oh well, I tried...my vote is now changing to a free Busa for all in need...

 

[raydog]

You know what's cool? How you guys, in three different places expressed yourselves to me in such nurturing and similar ways! I was actually smiling to myself as I threw another Duraflame on my fire!
Anyways, on the subject, I called both my insurance executive buddy back in New York and my brother in SoCal (Ins. agency owner) and asked their opinions. Interestingly, they both came from the same point of view (I realize they don't qualify as "speakers for the insurance industry"). Insurance industry research indicates (as I think someone posted somewhere back in the strand) that is is far more cost effective to cover BC prescriptions overall than the far costlier potential costs of 1)longterm hormone imbalance results 2)abortion 3)endomietriosis mgmt 4)unwanted pregnancy 5)other ones I can't remember. And the fact that BC Rx's are covered throughout the US by ins. companies (on the approved list for covered meds) typically....so the coverage issue has already been decided by insurance companies years ago, rendering strong opinions currently to the sideline. Shouldn't that aspect trump and negate a lot of the argument? Doyle

 

[dadofthree]

You guys still in here being distracted by the President. It's an election year as soon as we move on from the latest distraction thrown our way we can move on to the next one............

 

[VaBusa]

You know what's cool? How you guys, in three different places expressed yourselves to me in such nurturing and similar ways! I was actually smiling to myself as I threw another Duraflame on my fire!
Anyways, on the subject, I called both my insurance executive buddy back in New York and my brother in SoCal (Ins. agency owner) and asked their opinions. Interestingly, they both came from the same point of view (I realize they don't qualify as "speakers for the insurance industry"). Insurance industry research indicates (as I think someone posted somewhere back in the strand) that is is far more cost effective to cover BC prescriptions overall than the far costlier potential costs of 1)longterm hormone imbalance results 2)abortion 3)endomietriosis mgmt 4)unwanted pregnancy 5)other ones I can't remember. And the fact that BC Rx's are covered throughout the US by ins. companies (on the approved list for covered meds) typically....so the coverage issue has already been decided by insurance companies years ago, rendering strong opinions currently to the sideline. Shouldn't that aspect trump and negate a lot of the argument? Doyle

Sure, the cost of BC outweighs the costs of all you've listed Doyle, BUT tell me then, where did Fluke get her inflated #'s as reason for needing this to be FREE to all that want it? Insurance companies cover BC now, and those that have insurance pay the co-pay for it each and every month if you're on one of the many generics out there. NONE of this negates this simple fact that no one seems to want to address directly, and it's that there are other forms of BC that will ALSO outweigh all the negatives you've listed as a "byproduct" of pregnancy, and I'm solely addressing those women that want BC for pregnancy prevention only; they are the majority of women on BC. There are other options available, like condoms and abstinence. Is insurance going to dole out free condoms? Nope...why not? What's the difference? There is none IMHO, so we're back AGAIN to the simple fact that for most women who would benefit from this mandate, there are other options. BC is an elective choice for most women, therefore we don't and shouldn't ever want gov't dictating that it should be a covered medication.

And as I've stated repeatedly both here and in PMs to those inquiring about my stance, where are you guys on getting full coverage for drugs that are completely NECESSARY? This is not a necessary medication for most that would use it; it's completely elective, and you're OK with that being covered, yet so many go without for meds they need to survive? Pick a noble cause! This is not the one to hang your hat on...

 

[Mr Brown]

You know what's cool? How you guys, in three different places expressed yourselves to me in such nurturing and similar ways! I was actually smiling to myself as I threw another Duraflame on my fire!
Anyways, on the subject, I called both my insurance executive buddy back in New York and my brother in SoCal (Ins. agency owner) and asked their opinions. Interestingly, they both came from the same point of view (I realize they don't qualify as "speakers for the insurance industry"). Insurance industry research indicates (as I think someone posted somewhere back in the strand) that is is far more cost effective to cover BC prescriptions overall than the far costlier potential costs of 1)longterm hormone imbalance results 2)abortion 3)endomietriosis mgmt 4)unwanted pregnancy 5)other ones I can't remember. And the fact that BC Rx's are covered throughout the US by ins. companies (on the approved list for covered meds) typically....so the coverage issue has already been decided by insurance companies years ago, rendering strong opinions currently to the sideline. Shouldn't that aspect trump and negate a lot of the argument? Doyle

I think the point the right is trying to make is that employers shouldn't be required to provide coverage that includes B/C if said employers object to B/C on religious grounds, not whether ins. companies should provide it or not. That B/C solves a lot of issues besides just preventing pregnancies is not a question, at least not to my mind. One would think that the right would be behind the issue from a financial standpoint, but they have tied it to freedom of religion in order to further exemplify their contempt of the left.

 

[Mr Brown]

You guys still in here being distracted by the President. It's an election year as soon as we move on from the latest distraction thrown our way we can move on to the next one............

Nah, I'm still here cuz all that's on tv is "coverage" of the elections and political tv ads. I say "coverage" because it's ridiculous. I mean who cares that someone has won 70% of the 12% of precincts that have reported? With a 5% margin of error.

 

[USARMY]

Yeah I watched Fluke, testify in front of members of Congress. I'm wonderfing where in the heck did she get that lost in space number? I'm sorry she is a law student at Georgetown University. Graduates from there that go on to practice law in their first yr they can make roughly $160k. Now if she is spending $3k on contraceptives I wonder just how much she is actually studying? She can go to planned parenthood and get birth control for little or no cost. Or just take her rudypoot candy $%# to Walmart or Target and pay $9. I DON'T think I should have too pay for her or anyone else. It's individual responsibility something I think someone needs too teach her.. IJS

 

[raydog]

OK, here's a noble cause.....single payer healthcare. Not connected to employers, insurance companies or religions. Don't even have to reinvent the wheel, just redo medicare, consolidate with VA and cover all citizens. Some things shouldn't be for profit and healthcare is one of em. UhOh, don't respond to this suggestion, it could start another 10 pages.

 

[dadofthree]

Nah, I'm still here cuz all that's on tv is "coverage" of the elections and political tv ads. I say "coverage" because it's ridiculous. I mean who cares that someone has won 70% of the 12% of precincts that have reported? With a 5% margin of error.

No one

 

[Rainbow7]

What are you talking about?

Don't play dumb, Dino. - You liberals want to be able to force your opinions on everyone else, without anyone else being able to force their opinions on you. That's what this is really about. I find it laughable that the liberal establishment is in a (faux) uproar over this issue, while simultaneously lauding Obama for apologising for the burning of books being used by terrorists to pass messages to other terrorists.

Anyway, it seems that the issue of birth control has been solved:

 

[VaBusa]

This wasn't a healthcare issue to begin with, but the liberal side will jump on any wagon that's being touted as the next best thing for everyone, and even toss in a side of "Oh, this will help women and their plight in the work force" bit for good measure. :wtf: Dino likes facts, and I laid out FACTS here. I don't think citing articles formed by others OPINIONS negates these very simple facts:

1) Birth Control is not a requirement for most women to live
2) There are non-medical options for BC that any woman can utilize, if she feels BC isn't providing her an affordable option
3) Flukes opted to go with the shock and awe version of what it costs a woman to have BC, and I know for a fact, both with and without insurance coverage, her #'s are GREATLY exaggerated

Those 3 facts of *this* matter brought up days ago are being COMPLETELY ignored. The reason? I have NO IDEA other than those in favor of a bill like this just want free stuff for all, doesn't matter if it's jelly beans or drugs, everyone's entitled to it simply because they want it. Pretty pathetic that it took so many lefts and utterly sad that the most basic flaws in this bill are being ignored by those that want it so badly. You guys don't even know what it is you're fighting for, and that's coming from a person that claims no political or religious affiliation. That's just one American that sees how stupid a mandate like this truly is.

I gladly rest my case