Gen 1 More Turbo Questions.




tekati

Registered
I have more Turbo Kit questions. Before the flames start coming in please understand I am just trying to make an informed decision. I know most here like the RCC kit and say to go through PowerHouse and that is fine and quite possibly exactly what I will do but I have questions and would like some more answers before I shell out 5K for a turbo kit.

I spoke with both RCC and Mr. Turbo yesterday on the phone. Both seem like good quality kits but here are my plans and a few of my questions.

I have never ridden a Turbo bike before. I may get on a Mr. Turbo stage 1 classic and say oh my what have I gotten into and never want to fully utilize the power I have available. Then again I am a pretty huge speed and power junkie so I don't know. While speaking to Mr. Turbo (Sorry freaking horrible with names) he said they were dynoing a 600HP methanol busa for a guy for Bonneville this weekend and said he will only be using 450HP and won't know what to do with what he has already. Said that is scary fast at that HP. I spoke with him about his kits and options and failed to get the type of turbo he uses for the stage 1 kit. He did say for an additional 300 I could get the 450HP turbo with the stage 1 kit. So with that I do not know if I will want to go beyond 270HP ever or if I will want to run much more some day. If you see my previous engine build thread you will see that I am building an engine that will most likely take just about anything I throw at it.

So some of my questions now are.

1a. For a street bike am I better off running the smaller Mr. Turbo stage 1 turbo when it comes to building boost faster and making a better street performing system or will the 450HP turbo that the RCC kit comes with or that Mr. Turbo will sell for an additional 300 on the stage 1 kit be just as good and spool up and act just as good?

1b. Where does the Mr. Turbo stage 1 turbo start making boost compared to the larger 450HP turbos?

2. The Mr. Turbo Stage 1 Elite comes with the billet plenum ready for secondary injectors where it takes a RCC Stage 2 kit for the same thing unless that is an addon. I understand you still need the secondary ECU and the Injectors but it would be ready for the install.

3a. Do you think street bikes need a Blow Off valve? According to Mr. Turbo the answer is NO. He says unless you just want to hear the noise it makes to sound cool its a waste.

3b. I see that both RCC and Mr. Turbo both will sell you the Tial 50mm blow off for well over what you can find them for is this because of a needed modification to the system like a flange etc?

4. I posted another thread about bigger injectors vs secondary fuel rail. I see it both ways but the turbo stage 2 kits all seem to go the secondary fuel rail route instead of larger injectors why is this?

5. I keep seeing that the turbo is mounted where the stock oil cooler is. What happens to the oil cooler? Does it get moved? Removed? I see the Mr. Turbo Stage 1 Elite comes with an Oil Cooler Kit is this so that it can be mounted elsewhere as the stock one has to be removed?

6. If I install the PowerCommander hub and GM 3 Bar sensor what benefit will that give me? Tuners all use the Dyno O2 sensors correct? Or will this be to help the Dyno tech to tune the engine better?

7. Is there an air to air Intercooler kit that anyone sells for the Busa that will allow you to keep the stock look and headlight etc? Or a water to air system?

I really just want to make an informed decision before I lay out the cash on a turbo kit. So please don't just blindly say "Go for the RCC with PowerHouse" unless you have words of wisdom as to why I should go that route.

I am ready to place the order as I would like it to come in around the time the motor is being installed and I know there is at least a 3 week lead time for both kits.
 

POWERHOUSE

Frank
Site Sponsor
Registered
I have more Turbo Kit questions. Before the flames start coming in please understand I am just trying to make an informed decision. I know most here like the RCC kit and say to go through PowerHouse and that is fine and quite possibly exactly what I will do but I have questions and would like some more answers before I shell out 5K for a turbo kit.

I spoke with both RCC and Mr. Turbo yesterday on the phone. Both seem like good quality kits but here are my plans and a few of my questions.

I have never ridden a Turbo bike before. I may get on a Mr. Turbo stage 1 classic and say oh my what have I gotten into and never want to fully utilize the power I have available. Then again I am a pretty huge speed and power junkie so I don't know. While speaking to Mr. Turbo (Sorry freaking horrible with names) he said they were dynoing a 600HP methanol busa for a guy for Bonneville this weekend and said he will only be using 450HP and won't know what to do with what he has already. Said that is scary fast at that HP. I spoke with him about his kits and options and failed to get the type of turbo he uses for the stage 1 kit. He did say for an additional 300 I could get the 450HP turbo with the stage 1 kit. So with that I do not know if I will want to go beyond 270HP ever or if I will want to run much more some day. If you see my previous engine build thread you will see that I am building an engine that will most likely take just about anything I throw at it.

So some of my questions now are.

1a. For a street bike am I better off running the smaller Mr. Turbo stage 1 turbo when it comes to building boost faster and making a better street performing system or will the 450HP turbo that the RCC kit comes with or that Mr. Turbo will sell for an additional 300 on the stage 1 kit be just as good and spool up and act just as good?

Terry Kizer's Stage One carries the turbo too low, mandating the use of an electric scavenge pump, which is notorious for failing. Every one of his kits should come with three pumps, so you have a replacement in six months when it fails. Also, I am sure you will like the spacers needed to prop the fuel tank up so it clears the intake tube into the plenum. The RCC kits fits under the tank, like it should, and the turbo goes positive around 5,000 rpm. It makes a great street/strip kit, and will make 425 rear wheel when turned up - with the proper fueling.

1b. Where does the Mr. Turbo stage 1 turbo start making boost compared to the larger 450HP turbos?

This one also goes positive around 5K

2. The Mr. Turbo Stage 1 Elite comes with the billet plenum ready for secondary injectors where it takes a RCC Stage 2 kit for the same thing unless that is an addon. I understand you still need the secondary ECU and the Injectors but it would be ready for the install.

You get what you pay for!

3a. Do you think street bikes need a Blow Off valve? According to Mr. Turbo the answer is NO. He says unless you just want to hear the noise it makes to sound cool its a waste.

I disagree with Terry. A BOV eliminates intake back pressure, which can slow the turbine down.

3b. I see that both RCC and Mr. Turbo both will sell you the Tial 50mm blow off for well over what you can find them for is this because of a needed modification to the system like a flange etc?

RCC's price on the BOV is INSTALLED. In other words, a hole is cut into the plenum, the BOV flange is welded on, and everything is polished to match the plenum.

4. I posted another thread about bigger injectors vs secondary fuel rail. I see it both ways but the turbo stage 2 kits all seem to go the secondary fuel rail route instead of larger injectors why is this?

Because boxes like the Microtech fuel controller are "boost referencing" boxes, that will insure that your setup is getting the right amount of fuel regardless of boost level. It is an idiot-proof setup that will keep your engine from going lean.

5. I keep seeing that the turbo is mounted where the stock oil cooler is. What happens to the oil cooler? Does it get moved? Removed? I see the Mr. Turbo Stage 1 Elite comes with an Oil Cooler Kit is this so that it can be mounted elsewhere as the stock one has to be removed?

Mr. Turbo provides an optional oil cooler that mounts on the right side of the radiator sideways. The stock oil cooler, which is not needed, gets put in the parts bin. We have built and raced many turbo bikes without oil coolers. It has never been a problem.

6. If I install the PowerCommander hub and GM 3 Bar sensor what benefit will that give me? Tuners all use the Dyno O2 sensors correct? Or will this be to help the Dyno tech to tune the engine better?

A Dynojet Hub with a GM map sensor will enable your powercommander to "boost reference" and adjust for the proper A/F at different levels of boost. If you are using a secondary rail with a Microtech box, you will not need this.

7. Is there an air to air Intercooler kit that anyone sells for the Busa that will allow you to keep the stock look and headlight etc? Or a water to air system?

RCC has an air to air intercooler that mounts in front of the stock radiator. Richard also has the air to water setup, also known as an "Ultra Plenum".

I really just want to make an informed decision before I lay out the cash on a turbo kit. So please don't just blindly say "Go for the RCC with PowerHouse" unless you have words of wisdom as to why I should go that route.

I will be happy to answer any question you may have about either kit. I have installed and tuned both, in addition to many other kits. When it comes down to it, it is not what I like that matters, it is what you want after asking all the relevant questions and applying them to the end result you desire, and the limitations (if any) of your budget.

I am ready to place the order as I would like it to come in around the time the motor is being installed and I know there is at least a 3 week lead time for both kits.
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Blanca BusaLess

Suffers from PBSD
Donating Member
Registered
Wow! Frank that is a class act of a response. Never met you or spoke to you but I can tell that I don't need to.
Your a nice guy. Thanks for your contributions. I learn alot from your posts. They are the stuff dreams are made of :)
 

tekati

Registered
Fantastic information. I do have a slight issue with removing the oil cooler altogether. I live in Bakersfield, CA which is considered to be a desert where we have usually 30 days of 100+ weather and a lot of 90+ days to go with it. That along with being a street bike and one i wish to make runs to Sacramento and Las Vegas both 300 miles each way in that same heat i am not so sure removing the oil cooler will be a good thing.

Frank if its okay i would like to call you Monday and bend your ear and possibly place my order. I would guess you are closed weekends right?

You are for sure the most knowledgable person who responds on the forum and i take your word above all else here. By my posts i am sure you can see i am serious about this build and this being my first real motorcycle complete build i just want to be informed and make sound sane judgements.

Thank you so much for taking your time to answer my questions. Thats how a real business person who truely wants peoples business does it.
 

megawatt

Registered
Fantastic information. I do have a slight issue with removing the oil cooler altogether. I live in Bakersfield, CA which is considered to be a desert where we have usually 30 days of 100+ weather and a lot of 90+ days to go with it. That along with being a street bike and one i wish to make runs to Sacramento and Las Vegas both 300 miles each way in that same heat i am not so sure removing the oil cooler will be a good thing.
.....
I live in Las Vegas, with a RCC kit, with no oil cooler and I ride in 110F Summer heat. I did stop at 300hp as that is good enough for me (for now), I still have only one cooling fan and the bike is still ready to ride when I want to. So my .02 is you should be fine with no oil cooler, that should help you with your missing oil cooler concerns.

I just rode up to Reno for the annual Busa Stampede in August. It was a 2000+ mile, 7 day ride and I had no problem, so that should take care of your 300+ mile concerns thru the desert.
IMG_1991.jpg



Here is a pic of Richards work for the BOV installed on the plennum.
IMG_0006.jpg



A very simple thing to remember is Richard and Frank will never over sell you. They will both tell you the way things are when it comes to a turbo build. Now if you just have to add an additional piece of equipment they will sell you that also (after explaining if it is really necessary). If they say somthing is ok, then you should take comfort in what they say and go ride. After all we build these crazy bikes to have fun riding.
 

POWERHOUSE

Frank
Site Sponsor
Registered
Fantastic information. I do have a slight issue with removing the oil cooler altogether. I live in Bakersfield, CA which is considered to be a desert where we have usually 30 days of 100+ weather and a lot of 90+ days to go with it. That along with being a street bike and one i wish to make runs to Sacramento and Las Vegas both 300 miles each way in that same heat i am not so sure removing the oil cooler will be a good thing.

Frank if its okay i would like to call you Monday and bend your ear and possibly place my order.
As long as we are talking about a Gen 1 with a stock rad and single fan, I can supply you with the same oil cooler setup used on Terry's kits. You do not have to go without it, if that is what you want. I keep them in stock for that reason. Ask, and ye shall receive . . .

POWERHOUSE is never open on Sunday or Monday - gone riding! Unfortunately, I am closing the shop next week for vacation. I am leaving in the middle of next week, and going out of the country. PM your name and number, and I will call you on Monday and try to answer any other questions that you may have, and we can talk about a potential order at that time.
 

RYC1966

Donating Member
Registered
I can only speak for dealing with rcc and frank at his shop...both answer my nonsence questions that they have herd over and over...on the weekends or emails at all hours....the bike shop is a business and a way of life...there are always others that can sell you the same part for less to get the sale but after that you are on your own. I have a 07 stage 1 and it can be a handfull in the best way possible. I am sorry for wasting anybodies time but design a build where the tire is the weak link...breaking traction can be resolved with better chassis set up or power delivery...busting parts at high speeds can be avoided with a plan and necessary money. As a dreamer I welcome additional injectros and high boost with a serious plenum...it would be new to me yet routine to turbo guys...I am in a positions where the rider is a problem...not the reccomended package of parts...to me I can't get enough power...which can be had for a fee and a superior tune so the engine survives. It is not bs there alternatives and choose wisely wheather you spend $1000 or $12000 the end result is the shop gets a good feeling when you take their parts and are happy / satisfied customer
 

2wicked

Registered
Who ever you spoke to at Mr. Turbo, that told you a blow off valve is not needed for the street is quite mistaken. It makes me wonder if they actually know what one does. Just for clarification, a blow off valve reliefs excess boost pressure during gear shifts. Basically if the turbo is happily spinning along at 120 000 rpm, producing 7 psi of boost, and you chop the throttle to make a gear change, your throttle blades close, and the boost spikes in the plenum, with a blow off valve, that extra pressure is relieved allowing the turbo to maintain its 120 000 rpm, and when you have made the gear change and gotten back into the throttle the boost is still right there. Now, if you do not have a blow off valve, when you make a gear change that excess pressure builds, creating excess pressure in the compressor housing, creating what is called "stall" and "surge" which means the excess pressure can stall or surge the compressor wheel, causing it to slow down, and in more severe cases to stall, then when you twist the throttle you will have to wait for the turbo to spin back up to its 120 000rpm. Now granted that at 7 psi these conditions are minimal, but I here from a lot of so called turbo experts that you should install blow off valves on race bikes but they are not needed on street bikes, when in all truth it is typically the opposite. Race bikes use airshifters, and are raced at wide open throttle, a blow off valve does not function during wide open throttle, only during throttle closing. Hope this sheds some insight.

Here is some more info to consider when choosing a turbo system, RCC Kits use 304 stainless for their exh systems, which is non magnetic and does not rust, hence it does not need to be ceramic coated. We also use Tial wastegates standard, they are not an upgrade, our header flange is investment cast in one piece from 304 stainless, which will fit you head properly everytime, (individual flanges that competitors use bend and distort, and if ever removed will not fit properly when trying to reinstall)
Our systems do not use scavenge pumps, airfilters fit inside the bodywork, and our kits are the most upgradable of any on the market. If a customer buys a stage 1 and wants to upgrade to a stage 2 later we ask them to ship back their stage 1 airbox, we convert it into a stage 2, and install the injectors, billet fuel rail, wiring harness, new fuel lines and 1:1 bosch regulator, and microtech fuel ecu all for $2000.

One last thing is that we are always truthful to all our customers, if our system does not fall into the needs of a customer we will tell them and they are welcome to source a system that meets their needs or sometimes we can build them something custom.

Keep in mind, a 600hp methanol busa is old news, we make kits that produce that much power on race fuel, we did this years ago, now Bill Warners latest bike runs on methanol but it is speced out to make upwards of 1000hp.

Richard
 

wahly68

Registered
All im going to say is you get what you pay for with RCC! Richard and Frank are top notch and have all the answers you will need!!
 



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