Comparison of K1200S, ZX12, and Busa

I don't know where folks are getting off saying the big zook is long in the tooth or that the mother company ain't upgrading cause check it out...I wanted a Busa way back in '99...but first they had fueling problems with injector filter screens getting clogged...then they went through 3 generations of CCT (cam chain tensioners) before finally getting it right...then there was the "Sub-Frame Liberation" issue...which all got squared away by the end of '01...just in time for the '02 starter problem....so for '99, '00, '01, & ,02
rock.gif
...4 consecutive years running???....Hayabusa Engineers never caught a freaking break....and mostly due to ironing out problems that resulted from marketing the most prowerful production motorcycle known to man and it's associated massive and monsterouse torque production till finally in '03 the Mighty Busa was finally..."De-Bugged"....now tell me again how Suzuki rested on their laurels and how the Busa is getting long in the tooth with no upgrades???...then tell me again what new hypre sport touring motorcycle produces more rev for rev torque???....Busa engineers finally caught a break by '03 & '04...a well earned break....as wouldbe Busa owners could finally plunk down their hard earned with confidence...and in return get a 1,300cc High Perf 100FTLB engine shoe horned into a sportbike like frame sans any subframe, fueling, cct or starter issues....but according to some here???...suzi made no headway at all with their Busa eh???...well...I gues going from "the worlds fastest production motorcycle" too "the worlds fastest REFINED production motorcycle" just isn't getting counted...but know this...it's why I waited to harvest mine.
biggrin.gif


L8R, Bill.
cool.gif
 
And lastly, here's where we bump heads again - opinions can be, and often are, wrong.  Here's an example - suppose I held the opinion that the moon was made of green cheese and was inhabited by little green men.  
You used an assumption as your example?

Opinions are ideas based on partial information (correct or incorrect), and are biased by personnal experience.

Assumptions are "implied facts", based on patial information (correct or incorrect).

So, opinions can't be wrong, but assumptions can!
An opinion requires no experiential data, an assumption is something taken for granted. If I had overheard a conversation in which someone said that the moon is made of green cheese and is inhabited by little green men, I could hold that as an opinion without experiential data or any further information.

Since an assumption is something - a fact, statement, proposition, axiom, postulate or notion (websters) - taken for granted, it would reasonably require at least some partial information, though I suppose it could be argued that even partial information isn't a hard requirement.

My referenced example is an opinion.

You would be wrong because your stating a fact with no experience or enough information to support your statement.[/QUOTE]

Stating an opinion isn't necessarily stating a fact - a fact requires actuality, an opinion does not.

An opinion about the moon would imply that you have had some kind of experience with the moon, or little green men, that lead you to believe it to be true.[/QUOTE]

Again, incorrect. An opinion requires no experiential data.

If you keep popping into places that dislike what you like, then either you want to get a few bruises, or you feel better about yourself by putting down what others like.  It's called "Elevation by Degradation", and it's the most common sign of low self esteem.[/QUOTE]

Or I'm appealing to those kindred spirits who like motorcycles in general, regardless the badge.

Then there are those who are so horribly insecure that they (i) cannot stand the thought that something may or has come along that may be better than their favorite toy, or (ii) turn a blind eye to that potentially better something for the sake of acceptance.

Diagnose them, Doctor...

It's just too much fun, once again;

Steve
 
 

So you could say I have a lot of varied experience and a unique perspective, or you could just say that I'm a cranky know-it-all who needs to get laid...

Steve
I think one could say all those things Aught, and a few could prolly say more  
wow.gif
 
wink.gif
 
tounge.gif
But one thing I can say is you definately keep us from getting bored around here....and we love our entertainment  
biggrin.gif

And I'm assuming your all better now...I hope so cause' it sounds like you've still got some riding to do  
super.gif
Well thanks Big Red! And at least I'm good for something...

Steve
 
And lastly, here's where we bump heads again - opinions can be, and often are, wrong.  Here's an example - suppose I held the opinion that the moon was made of green cheese and was inhabited by little green men.  
You used an assumption as your example?

Opinions are ideas based on partial information (correct or incorrect), and are biased by personnal experience.

Assumptions are "implied facts", based on patial information (correct or incorrect).

So, opinions can't be wrong, but assumptions can!
An opinion requires no experiential data, an assumption is something taken for granted.  If I had overheard a conversation in which someone said that the moon is made of green cheese and is inhabited by little green men, I could hold that as an opinion without experiential data or any further information.

Since an assumption is something - a fact, statement, proposition, axiom, postulate or notion (websters) - taken for granted, it would reasonably require at least some partial information, though I suppose it could be argued that even partial information isn't a hard requirement.

My referenced example is an opinion.

 You would be wrong because your stating a fact with no experience or enough information to support your statement.

Stating an opinion isn't necessarily stating a fact - a fact requires actuality, an opinion does not.

 An opinion about the moon would imply that you have had some kind of experience with the moon, or little green men, that lead you to believe it to be true.[/QUOTE]

Again, incorrect.  An opinion requires no experiential data.

If you keep popping into places that dislike what you like, then either you want to get a few bruises, or you feel better about yourself by putting down what others like.  It's called "Elevation by Degradation", and it's the most common sign of low self esteem.[/QUOTE]

Or I'm appealing to those kindred spirits who like motorcycles in general, regardless the badge.  

Then there are those who are so horribly insecure that they (i) cannot stand the thought that something may or has come along that may be better than their favorite toy, or (ii) turn a blind eye to that potentially better something for the sake of acceptance.

Diagnose them, Doctor...

It's just too much fun, once again;

Steve[/QUOTE]
Here you go again, using the same tired rhetoric to try and show us how wise you are. I for one, and I'm sure that there are others who share my opinon, am bored with your constant and inaccurate criticism of everyone. If you are so concerned with appealing to your "kindred spirits" I suggest you go to wherever it is that people like you congregate and rejoice together in whatever it is that makes your meat loaf. Obviously you have no kindred spirits here, so why are you trying so hard to convince us that you are right and we are wrong. Discussion of differences in opinion and taste are welcomed, even encouraged here, but constant criticism like that which you constantly provide is tiresome.
 
Steve, can you break up those posts a bit, they're kind of long and it's difficult for me to keep interested in them? Maybe you could make several post and add some pictures, my small brain needs pictures to understand.
rock.gif




<!--EDIT|Kevin Kesler
Reason for Edit: "sorry, it was mean"|1113356614 -->
 
Why would you expect anything in particular from me? You don't know me. This is, once again an example of your ignorance.
And now, to you Mr. Brown...

My expectation was based on your previous posts in this thread - my expectation was based on prior experience, not ignorance.

If you didn't mean to address me with your flawed thinking comment, you should have left it out of your reply to me.[/QUOTE]

It was in response to your 'limitless knowledge' comment, and on what did you base that comment?  The thread.  And I was making reference to the thread as well.  If you can't grasp that, too bad.

How can you possibly know what the results of future articles are?[/QUOTE]

Are you eating pills you've found on the bus station floor, Brown?  Where in the world could you have possibly come up with this glowing gem...

This is what I mean by your speaking from a position of superiority.[/QUOTE]

And you are doing what now?  Dressing me down as a superior...

If you didn't reveal the fact that you had cancer for sympathy, why then? There is no reason for you to want me to play nicely in the sandbox unless you feel that you are no longer in control. It seems as if you thought that either I would feel sorry for you and take it easy, or that others would think I was being too hard on you and give more merit to what you say.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I shouldn't have.  I'm not at all in the habit of opening up and sharing - should have known better.  It was merely THE explanation as to why I sold my last bike, not because I'm abandoning motorcycling or some such thing.  My mistake - won't happen again.

You are bashing the Busa, how else do you explain a heavier, slower, more expensive bike "as the next step in the logical evolution (of) motorcycling".[/QUOTE]

And how is that 'bashing' the Busa??  If this isn't the bike, Brown, one will come along...  If things aren't in the process of evolving, they're either stagnating or devolving, yes?  

The GoldWing goes farther, is more comfortable and has a more supple suspension than a Busa, does that mean that it would win a head to head comparison? [/QUOTE]

If the comparison involved distance, comfort, suppleness, sure.  But in this case the reviewers were told something along the lines of "First one around the TT wins".  Odd that;  first one around the TT in a motorcycle competition wins - who ever heard of such a thing...

BMW designed this bike as a Busa killer, specifically to dethrone the king of high speed touring. They failed.[/QUOTE]

Did they really...  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 The psuedo-authority with which you write betrays your true feelings. Your writing smacks of a pretentious, small minded individual who, rather than listen to those of us who actually go and ride at least one of the bikes in question would prefer to argue the point based on a magazine article which is questionable at best.[/QUOTE]

And you're even-keeled, fair-minded, patient and non-pretentious.  Right.

I've ridden two of the three bikes in question.  I will ride the K12S.  Will my opinion count then?

 Once again, an opinion can not be wrong [/QUOTE]

So I'm not wrong after all - cool.  What's all this about then??

The scientific data which applies to these bikes clearly states that the BMW is heavier, makes less power, is slower and more expensive. Thus, by your own logic, it is only the winner in a comparison which rewards attributes that are negatives in the realm in which it seeks to dominate.[/QUOTE]

Yet it handles and stops better than its competition...  Amazing.

The opinion based side of the argument, in which the BMW seems to hold favor with the testers is exactly that, opinion.[/QUOTE]

"Once again, an opinion can not be wrong"

So they're not wrong??  Seems to me that the more insecure among you have been whining about how the reviewers are wrong...

 Believe whatever you like, I could not care less which bike you prefer, but do not attempt to disparage the opinions of others, simply because they don't think like you.[/QUOTE]

You mean, JUST EXACTLY AS YOU'RE DOING TO ME NOW, BROWN??  

Hits home, donnit.

Just because you think something doesn't mean that those of us who think differently are wrong, or less intelligent, it just means that we have differing opinions. [/QUOTE]

Take those words of yours to heart, Brown...

Later;

Steve



<!--EDIT|Aughtsix
Reason for Edit: "Trimmed in size for my buddy Kevin..."|1113359959 -->
 
Here you go again, using the same tired rhetoric to try and show us how wise you are.
Exactly what I would say to you, Mr. Brown.

 I for one, and I'm sure that there are others who share my opinon, am bored with your constant and inaccurate criticism of everyone.[/QUOTE]

Of everyone, Mr. Brown?  I'm criticizing everyone now??  And is this as opposed to your constant criticism of me??

If you are so concerned with appealing to your "kindred spirits" I suggest you go to wherever it is that people like you congregate and rejoice together in whatever it is that makes your meat loaf. Obviously you have no kindred spirits here, so why are you trying so hard to convince us that you are right and we are wrong.[/QUOTE]

What a load of pretentious crap!  Why are you trying so hard to convince me that I'm wrong - especially since you so authoritatively state that opinions can't be wrong.  And, I'm spending most of my time bouncing back and forth with you -  are you the entire forum now??  You've put yourself in a pretty exalted position it seems.

Discussion of differences in opinion and taste are welcomed, even encouraged here, but constant criticism like that which you constantly provide is tiresome [/QUOTE]

Yet you are engaging in the same constant criticism, and it's somehow justifiable in your eyes.  How's that again??

-reduced in size and content for my buddy Kevin-

Steve



<!--EDIT|Aughtsix
Reason for Edit: "had to fix a quote - oh no wait, I'm superior, I forgot..."|1113359743 -->
 
Steve, can you break up those posts a bit, they're kind of long and it's difficult for me to keep interested in them? Maybe you could make several post and add some pictures, my small brain needs pictures to understand.
rock.gif
Sorry about that Kevin, sure, I'll take that into consideration.

Tell you what - when y'all beat me near to death with stones and staves, I'll see if I can get someone to post the pictures up for ya. Would that be helpful? You could frame it or put it up on your fridge...

Steve
 
Tell you what - when y'all beat me near to death with stones and staves,[/QUOTE]

Pretentious AND a victimization complex.  How intriguing.  Nice trick if you can pull it off.

The fact is, AughtSixSteveWhatever, that you came in and from your very first post, decided to be as much of a pretnetious prat as possible with your "The Busa is carrying a lot of extra load though - the weight of its own reputation" line, and proceeded to go downhill from there.  On a Busa board no less.

Now if you honestly didn't expect people to come and call you on your BS, you must be living far too close to a lumber mill there in Oregon, and inhaling a bit too much creosote.

You've continued to do so, but each time getting more defensive of your position, and more personal in your attacks... this isn't what one would call a debate tactic... more of an attempt at smoke and mirrors.

You sit there and seem to claim your bike of choice is oh-so-superior, yet obviously most people here seem to think differently.  Some who have even ridden the KBike seem to think differently.  Personal preference, let it go.  I find it amusing that you mention that some people seem to be shutting you down because "they cannot stand the thought that something may or has come along that may be better than their favorite toy, or turn a blind eye to that potentially better something for the sake of acceptance," yet you seem to berate anyone who doesn;t agree with you.... because you cannot stand the thought that a bike whether for others or in general, may be better than your precious K12.

The fact of the matter is that you've come in here trolling as much as possible, knowing you'd get people to come in to go against you, probably for your own jollies and to prop up your own ego (and I've no doubt that the beemer boards this shows up on you have either posted this to, or let enough people know so it would be... self-important egos like yours couldn't handle this being a limited audience sort of thing).  Congratulations.

But honestly, your opinion (and really "my bike is better than yours is nyah nyah" is little more than an opinion, and a fairly childish one at that) doesn't hold water here, and until every review on the market comes out showing hard data that one bike is far superior than any other in all facets of bikedom, it won't really hold water anywhere else.

You've got a bike that has a cute little BMW badge on it.  Congratulations, you can now go and sip evian with Buffy and Skip and revel in your upper-class wannabe status.  I'll be happily riding my bike, pretention-free, and safe in the knowledge that as far as I am concerned and what it does for me, it's a superior machine.



<!--EDIT|RandomNickname
Reason for Edit: "Typos. Damn my fingers!"|1113361498 -->
 
Tell you what - when y'all beat me near to death with stones and staves,

Pretentious AND a victimization complex.  How intriguing.  Nice trick if you can pull it off.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but you have to admit, I'm trying...  
laugh.gif


The fact is, AughtSixSteveWhatever, that you came in and from your very first post, decided to be as much of a pretnetious prat as possible with your "The Busa is carrying a lot of extra load though - the weight of its own reputation" line, and proceeded to go downhill from there.  On a Busa board no less. [/QUOTE]

Okay, admittedly stupid line.  I meant it in a joking sense (note the smilies) not realizing the amount of thin skin nearby.  

Now if you honestly didn't expect people to come and call you on your BS, you must be living far too close to a lumber mill ther ein ORegon, and inhaling a bit too much creosote.[/QUOTE]

Don't knock it till you've tried it...

You've continued to do so, but ach time getting more defensive of your position, and more personal in your attacks... this isn't what one would call a debate tactic... more of an attempt at smoke and mirrors.[/QUOTE]

More defensive of my position when under constant attack.  Okay.

More personal in my attacks.  Oh, you mean counter attacks.  Okay.

You sit there and seem to claim your bike of choice is oh-so-superior, yet obviously most people here seem to think differently.[/QUOTE]

Wait - you don't think the Busa is a great bike?  The Busa isn't at the top of your possibles list??  You haven't been waiting half a fricken year to see the '05 LE in the flesh??  This must be so if you think differently than me because, as I'm getting really tired of restating, the Busa is my bike of choice of the three.  

Does this mean that I'm willing to turn a blind eye to the K12S?  And ignore what it is??  Hell no, leave that to the sheeple.

Some who have even ridden the KBike seem to think differently.  PErsonal preference, let it go.[/QUOTE]

True, though the vast minority in what I've read.  The most frequent complaint I've read has been that of vibration.

I find it amusing that you mention that some people seem to be shutting you down because "they cannot stand the thought that something may or has come along that may be better than their favorite toy, or turn a blind eye to that potentially better something for the sake of acceptance," yet you seem to berate anyone who doesn;t agree with you.... because you cannot stand the thought that a bike whether for others or in general, may be better than your precious K12.[/QUOTE]

Funny - scroll through the thread.  I'm the one being berated for holding a different view.  Then, in responding to the incessant flow of flak, I'm criticized as being superior and/or intolerant...

The fact of the matter is that you've come in here trolling as much as possible, knowing you'd get people to come in to go against you[/QUOTE]

What a paranoid view - if what you say is true I've been setting this very conversation up for a very long time.  You should compliment me on my tenacity.

probably for your own jollies and to prop up your own ego[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, this is SO ego building...  

(and I've no doubt that the beemer boards this shows up on you have either posted this to, or let enough people know so it would be... self-important egos like yours couldn't handle this being a limited audience sort of thing).  Congratulations.[/QUOTE]

More paranoia and already addressed.  

But the fact of the matter is, your opinion (and really "my bike is better than yours is nyah nyah" is little more than an opinion, and a fairly childish one at that) doesn't hold water here, and until every review on the market comes out showing hard data that one bike is far superior than any other, it won't really hold water anywhere else. You've got a bike that has a cute little BMW badge on it.  Congratulations, you can now go and sip evian with Buffy and Skip and revel in your upper-class wannabe status.  I'll be happily riding my bike, pretention-free, and safe in the knowledge that as far as I am concerned and what it does for me, it's a superior machine.[/QUOTE]

Oh, what an ego you have there, stating that yours is the superior machine...  
laugh.gif


And I have a BMW??  News to me.

Next...

Steve



<!--EDIT|Aughtsix
Reason for Edit: None given...|1113371349 -->

laugh.gif
 
And I have a BMW?? News to me.[/QUOTE]

You have a Big Musky Womanhood, go clean that mofo.
 
One thing I did notice about that article waaay back that started this thread......On BMW's website they claim the 1200 has 167 crank hp...Suzi claims 178 with the Busa....Kawi claims 180 for the 12R. How come in this articles specs they claim all the bikes are within 4 rwhp of each other? The BMW's rwhp looks a little high for the crank hp....but its possible I suppose. But cmon' now we ALL know that the two Japanese machines rwhp numbers should be wayyy higher in comparison to the Bimmer's no matter what the story.......what gives??
rock.gif
 
Back
Top