Comparison of K1200S, ZX12, and Busa
- Thread starter warbrown
- Start date
Mr Brown
Registered
Show me, Brown, where I assumed "limitless knowledge" on this topic. I'm taping into the article posted above, the same article to which everyone has access - you did read it, didn't you - and adding information from owner's reports of the K12S. Mostly what I've done in this thread - which is what's pissing you off I'm sure - is dissecting criticism and pointing out flawed thinking. And I'm evidently treading on your tender little 'FanBoy' toes and you don't like it. You apparently believe that any criticism of anything not Busa should stand untouched, and anyone who points out that the King has no clothes is assuming "limitless knowledge" and should be rewarded with your little emotional tantrum. And you think I'm messed up...
Flawed Thinking
Secondly, I didn't say your opinion disagreeing with my opinion constitutes flawed thinking; that was a leap on your part onto a bridge that simply isn't there - another part of your emotional outburst I suppose. In your dislike of me you assumed that the sentence "And flawed thinking is flawed thinking" was directed at you. Ironically though, your reaction in assuming a connection that doesn't exist demonstrates flawed thinking.
Before you fly off the handle again, let me say that we all demonstrate flawed thinking - we're only human afterall and it's what makes us unique. But to use flawed thinking as a foundation of criticism, or whatever, is to be shortsighted. You call it what you will.
Examples of the sort of flawed thinking I was referring to are:
It can't be a better bike than the Busa because it has a fuel injection glitch
The flaw here is that even with the fuel injection glitch it defeated the others in that review. And, how much better will the bike be once the glitch is corrected? In other words, the K12S won despite a handicap.
It isn't really relevant because it's not even in the same class - it's more of a tourer or a suit and tie sports tourer.
Yet it defeated the two top Hyper-Sports bikes, in the eyes of those reviewers, in a real world competition! That being so, if it indeed is a sub-class machine, its victory speaks even more loudly.
More power for the Busa would change the results.
The K12S didn't defeat the 12r and the Busa by virtue of superior power, or by virtue of a superior weight advantage, it defeated them by virtue of a superior suspension. Adding power to the Busa isn't going to change the suspension of the Busa. I seriously doubt that during the testing did the rider(s) actually use all the power of the Busa anyway, if not more than once or twice.
Also bear in mind, Suzuki could add more power, they could add an exotic suspension and they could create a more upscale Hayabusa. They've chosen not to. Remember that Suzuki is the company which brought us a rotary engine motorcycle for heavens sakes. They have the ability. They also brought us what's arguably the best two-stroke street bike ever created - the GT750.
The review is biased
A hard point to drive home seeing as the reviewers stated significant problems with the K12S. A biased review would most certainly gloss over any significant issues with its chosen machine. Also, I'll maintain that the British have traditionally been less than kind to German bikes in the past. I don't see why they would suddenly change face. Lastly, why didn't I hear this protest of bias when the reviewers of past were heaping glowing praise onto the Busa?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't MCN write some awfully glowing reviews of the Busa in its heyday??
If you don't ride what I ride you can't add anything relevant -or to borrow from the Stones - He can't be a man cuz he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me
This is the underlying motive behind your question of what I ride, isn't it...
But that's okay, I'll be more than happy to give you an answer. The last bike I rode was a Busa. Before that it's been an odd mixture - a Harley SoftTail Deuce, a ZX-12r, a Ducati 900SS, a Harley Road King, a Moto Guzzi LeMans, and a few others I've probably forgotten. I'll also tell you that the last time I owned a bike was two years ago. See, in '99 I was diagnosed with cancer. I don't know if you know much about it, or if you've experienced it in your friends and/or family, but something that comes with cancer is medical bills. I kept my bike as long as I could, but I finally gutted in and sold it back in '03. Luckily I have friends (imagine that, eh Brown?) who kept me riding - the bikes mentioned above - to keep my mind off of things (I call it my cycletherapy). I've been back on my feet for some time now, so I've been trying to decide in which direction to go with my next motorcycle. I've been riding for 30 plus years now, but I always seem to keep coming back to big, smooth sport bikes. If you go back, not so long ago, and read the first few '05 LE threads, you'll see that I have quite an interest in it - in fact, an '05 LE may very well be my next bike, but that doesn't really matter, does it.
So you could say I have a lot of varied experience and a unique perspective, or you could just say that I'm a cranky know-it-all who needs to get laid...
Steve[/QUOTE]
Okay, your posts are written in a condescending tone, you write as if you have acheived some type of higher plane of experience that the rest of us can only hope to realize one day. That is why I say you assume "limtlss knowledge". Yes, we all read the same article, you are the only one who doesn't find it suspect. I am not one of the people who thinks that the Busa has no problems or shortcomings, I think it has several. It's not a case of the Emporer having no clothes, it's simply that this article is biased. It states that a 051k would have a hard time keeping up with the BMW on a bumpy A road! In what alternate universe would that happen? Of course your sentence about flawed thinking was directed toward me, you put it at the end of your reply to me. Now that I have called you on it you want to back-pedal.There is no reason for me to make a connection, you did it for me. Your tone has nothing to do with what you ride, I was just curious what you were basing your comparison on, since you've never actually ridden the Bimmer/Beemer whatever.You say that my dislike of you clouded my judgement. I don't dislike you, I don't even know you. What I do dislike is the tone you take in your posts. You tell me that you have been diagnosed with cancer, and that is unfortunate, I would not wish that on anyone. Do not however expect me to be lenient in my criticism of you as a result of your disclosure. I hope that you recover fully and are able soon to purchase a bike that you enjoy.Until then I will continue to take you to task for knocking the opinions of others, especially those of us who actually ride the bike you are bashing. The article is clearly biased toward the winner, the thinking of those who brought that point up is not flawed, and opinions are not facts and cannot be wrong.
Stay Tuned Folks And Now For A Word From Our Sponsors....The Fine Folks At Tampex....
Hmmm, honestly not the scathing nastygram I was expecting...
There could be hope yet.
Firstly, and honestly, my comment about flawed thinking applied to a pool of responses, not yours specifically, just as your "limitless knowledge" comment didn't apply to one particular post but my posts in general.
Secondly, the article is one of many to come. Unless there's a grand conspiracy afoot, it reflects what I've been reading from numerous other sources. As I've said before, time will tell whether or not this new BMW is what I believe it to be. As for now however, I don't find the article suspect, no.
Thirdly, I didn't pull the 'C' card for sympathy as it's certainly and unfortunately not something exclusive to me, and by the tone of your posts it wouldn't have been reasonable to expect sympathy from you in any event. Oddly, it was a blessing in many ways, one of which is that it got me off of one bike and put me on many, another of which is it brought home the nature of true friendship.
Incidentally, my five year cycle ended last year - thank you for your concern.
Fourthly, I'm not bashing the Busa any more than I'm bashing the 12r. I simply see the K12S as the next step in the logical evolution in motorcycling, and I won't turn a blind eye to its technology for the sake of acceptance. I'll say again, at this point the '05 LE is at the top of my list.
Fifthly, I think and write in a very straightforward way - something about which Kesler is ever vigilent in reminding me. I'll be more than happy to admit that not only have I certainly not achieved some exalted plane, but that I'm a molecule of grease in the cogs of life and happy for it...
And lastly, here's where we bump heads again - opinions can be, and often are, wrong. Here's an example - suppose I held the opinion that the moon was made of green cheese and was inhabited by little green men.
Long ago I was given an axiom - An opinion is only valid insofar as it coincides with reality. The reality is that the moon is not made of green cheese and inhabited by little green men. Sufficient scientific data exists, concrete data, proving that opinion to be wrong. May I continue to hold to it? Certainly, but I'd be holding to an opinion which is wrong.
Hence, my signature line...
I'm still hoping to make it to Colorado this August. You can bust my chops then. Until then, take care.
Steve
Bent, you're the kid who got beat up a lot - am I right...Hey its the BMW K1200S , the fastest motorcycle in the world! NOT!
TruWrecks
Banned
Please remember that when Suzuki designed the Hayabusa in 1998, it was to be the "Summary of all the best in sportbike technology". It met that requirement in 1999, and everyone else has been trying to beat it now for 6 years! Does this mean that Suzuki was 6 years ahead of everyone else, and they're all just playing catch up? I don't really care, I like my Busa anyway. But you have to face the facts. 6 years with NO technical updates, and it's still one of the best bikes on the planet! Pretty cool, if you ask me!
TruWrecks
Banned
You used an assumption as your example?
Opinions are ideas based on partial information (correct or incorrect), and are biased by personnal experience.
Assumptions are "implied facts", based on patial information (correct or incorrect).
So, opinions can't be wrong, but assumptions can!
As for your example: You can assume that the moon is made of green cheese and was inhabited by little green men. You would be wrong because your stating a fact with no experience or enough information to support your statement.
An opinion about the moon would imply that you have had some kind of experience with the moon, or little green men, that lead you to believe it to be true.
Let's tie this all together now.
Your opinion is that the K12S is a better bike than the Busa. Is that wrong? No, as long as you have tried both bikes before you state it as a fact. If you haven't ridden both bikes then your statement isn't an opinion, it's an assumption.
My opinion that the Busa is a better bike also falls into the same guidelines. My assumption is that the Busa is a better bike, because I haven't ridden a K12S yet.
Every single mag article is going to be biased to some degree. Build a bridge, and get over it. You can always find someone who likes what you like, and someone who dislikes what you like. If you keep popping into places that dislike what you like, then either you want to get a few bruises, or you feel better about yourself by putting down what others like. It's called "Elevation by Degradation", and it's the most common sign of low self esteem.
My condolences to you. I hope you find what your looking for, without making everyone else around you miserable.
The Big Red One
Registered
I kinda think the same thing Bill....each bike has certain qualities...its all up to what a person prefers in their ride...what gives them the "grin factor" on the bikeSo would it be fair to say that...in summary those of you who are lacking in your riding skills will have a much easier time of keeping up with us on a K1200S in the twisties but once we hit the straights it's "Have A Nice Day"
Seriousely though...I don't doubt for a moment that the beemers electronic select duolever suspenders and Linked ABS Brakes are heads and tails over the busa's legs but...it was BMW and the Rags that billed it as "BMW's Busa Beater"....not us...meanwhile back on the farm???...I'm fairly certain that if a guy dropped $2,000 for Brakepads, Braided SS Dual Brake-Lines, a Sweet Penske Rear Shock and Prpoer Springing & Valving up front that between the straights and the curves???...any two equally skilled riders would put on a real war bewteen these two steeds...only diference being that...when things did get long and straight???....the Busa would be waiving Bye-Bye too the Fondu Dipping, Wine Tasting, Irons his underware Beemer Pilot!!! LOL!!!
To me it's still a coin flip based on personal preference....you want world class suspenders???....or???....World Class Power???.....and isn't it odd how world class power comes at LESS THAN 2/3rds the cost of the beemer???
excuse me...after that?...I need to go hug my Busa!!!
L8R, Bill.
I have to admit tho..that review seemed a little off...kinda anti-Japanese sportbike.
I also have a feeling that that type of review is gonna be in the minority. I think that the majority of riders are a little more power-hungry....I know I am
<!--EDIT|The Big Red One
Reason for Edit: "because I can....."|1113297584 -->
The Big Red One
Registered
I think one could say all those things Aught, and a few could prolly say more
And I'm assuming your all better now...I hope so cause' it sounds like you've still got some riding to do
The Big Red One
Registered
The Big Red One
Registered
The Big Red One
Registered
Me a post ho?!?...Hell yeah!!!
<!--EDIT|The Big Red One
Reason for Edit: "the usual......"|1113298719 -->
<!--EDIT|The Big Red One
Reason for Edit: "the usual......"|1113298719 -->
The only thing you guys need to know is that everyone likes the BUSA better anyway. Everytime someone pulls up on a BUSA they get looks! How many times do you see people drooling over a Beamer?! hardly ever. The BUSA is a dream bike and people that dont have one are just jelous or they simply cant afford one. The BUSA just looks so awesome and everyone knows it!!
BigDawg_03Busa
Registered
Actually the 12 also had several feature changes from 2001 to 2002. Look at the bike between those years. Before 02' the 12r was just UGLY! It became a beauty after 02'.
Mr Brown
Registered
Why would you expect anything in particular from me? You don't know me. This is, once again an example of your ignorance. If you didn't mean to address me with your flawed thinking comment, you should have left it out of your reply to me. How can you possibly know what the results of future articles are? This is what I mean by your speaking from a position of superiority. If you didn't reveal the fact that you had cancer for sympathy, why then? There is no reason for you to want me to play nicely in the sandbox unless you feel that you are no longer in control. It seems as if you thought that either I would feel sorry for you and take it easy, or that others would think I was being too hard on you and give more merit to what you say. You are bashing the Busa, how else do you explain a heavier, slower, more expensive bike "as the next step in the logical evolution (of) motorcycling". The GoldWing goes farther, is more comfortable and has a more supple suspension than a Busa, does that mean that it would win a head to head comparison? Perhaps, it would depend on what you were using to compare the two. BMW designed this bike as a Busa killer, specifically to dethrone the king of high speed touring. They failed. They did however build a technologically advanced, fast, well put together bike. It just doesn't do the things Busa does better, or even as well as the current benchmark. I don't care how straightforwardly you think or write, you may protest that you think of yourself as a molecule of grease or any such meaningless object. The psuedo-authority with which you write betrays your true feelings. Your writing smacks of a pretentious, small minded individual who, rather than listen to those of us who actually go and ride at least one of the bikes in question would prefer to argue the point based on a magazine article which is questionable at best.
Once again, an opinion can not be wrong, the example you use would not be an opinion, we have scientific proof that the moon is not made of green cheese, therefore an opinion is not warranted. An opinion has no factual basis, once facts are applied it becomes a theory which is in turn quantifiable. The scientific data which applies to these bikes clearly states that the BMW is heavier, makes less power, is slower and more expensive. Thus, by your own logic, it is only the winner in a comparison which rewards attributes that are negatives in the realm in which it seeks to dominate. The opinion based side of the argument, in which the BMW seems to hold favor with the testers is exactly that, opinion. Believe whatever you like, I could not care less which bike you prefer, but do not attempt to disparage the opinions of others, simply because they don't think like you. Just because you think something doesn't mean that those of us who think differently are wrong, or less intelligent, it just means that we have differing opinions.
Similar threads
