Clutch+Brake master bore size?
- Thread starter murphc13
- Start date
Really?Let us know how that goes.
Cheers man.
Berlin Germany
Registered
or other way around
the original dia at clutch and brake pump is both 5/8"
at the front brake
the radial 17 piston dia i like to use on the street
the radial 19 piston dia i only use at race track
the danger of overbraking the front with the 19 in "fear / shock braking" is for me toooooo big
clutch and a radial 16 piston dia is, i guess, the best combination
and
if the ´99 / ´00 slave doesn´t work best try the slave of the 2002 and later (gen2´s fits also).
their piston dia ist 36 mm instead of 38 at the ´99 / ´00 (and i suppose ´01)
the original dia at clutch and brake pump is both 5/8"
at the front brake
the radial 17 piston dia i like to use on the street
the radial 19 piston dia i only use at race track
the danger of overbraking the front with the 19 in "fear / shock braking" is for me toooooo big
clutch and a radial 16 piston dia is, i guess, the best combination
and
if the ´99 / ´00 slave doesn´t work best try the slave of the 2002 and later (gen2´s fits also).
their piston dia ist 36 mm instead of 38 at the ´99 / ´00 (and i suppose ´01)
Last edited:
Kiwi Rider
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Excellent info Frank, thanks, I'll be writing that down in my notebook.
michael parris heuberger
Registered
Hi. My Beringer brake master is a 20.6 mm. I will have to look into the clutch master. They are the same ones that DME uses. But what do they know they have not ran under 6.38 sec or faster than 232,59 MPH in the 1/4 mile.Excellent info Frank, thanks, I'll be writing that down in my notebook.
Thanks for the info.Mine is a 2014.Do you know the caliper piston diameter?
ottafish
Registered
Calipers
The hydraulic system has been painstakingly optimised, and the use of differentiated 34 mm diameter pistons has further increased the already renowned power and controllability of Brembo calipers. The caliper is finished with a titanium coloured anodic oxide coating.
Brembo M4 Brake Calipers - RevZilla
Features:
The hydraulic system has been painstakingly optimised, and the use of differentiated 34 mm diameter pistons has further increased the already renowned power and controllability of Brembo calipers. The caliper is finished with a titanium coloured anodic oxide coating.
Brembo M4 Brake Calipers - RevZilla
Features:
- Cast aluminum construction
- Titanium anodized finish
- Single piece monoblock design
- Hand painted embossed Brembo logo
- Four 34mm aluminum pistons
- Weight without pads: ~800 gr
- Compatible disc height: 32-34mm
- Brake fluid: DOT 4
Berlin Germany
Registered
your welcome
what for?
even i never took the dia of my ´00 tokicos - why should I?
As far as I was aware the diameter of the master cylinder bore that’s optimum is based on the caliper piston size.
M50 brembos have a 30(could be 32) dia piston and a 17mm master bore is recommended for that.
M4s have a 34mm piston dia and a 19mm master bore is recommended.
At least based off forum talk(a different forum).
Berlin Germany
Registered
@murphc13
for the original tokicos at the gen1´s front brake i stay with what i wrote above
"the radial 17 piston dia i like to use on the street
the radial 19 piston dia i only use at race track "
the combination of deep cleaned (all ~ 24kmi) calipers and a 17 radial pump is so very /highly sensitive - you won´t spend a lot of money for other things - believe in me - more you don´t need (on the road).
for the original tokicos at the gen1´s front brake i stay with what i wrote above
"the radial 17 piston dia i like to use on the street
the radial 19 piston dia i only use at race track "
the combination of deep cleaned (all ~ 24kmi) calipers and a 17 radial pump is so very /highly sensitive - you won´t spend a lot of money for other things - believe in me - more you don´t need (on the road).
I have a brembo radial from a Superduke R1290 ready to go on.Helibars also ready.It’s just a case of making time for it now.
Mythos
Registered
Smaller bore increases pressure/reduces volume/increases lever travel.
Larger bore decreases pressure/increases volume/reduces lever travel.
SO with a larger bore, I would expect more instant reaction to lever actuation. The max power is reduced though because the larger bore creates less fluid pressure.
I'm sure it matters a lot how much pressure and volume are required to do the job too. Ordinary clutch springs don't require a lot of pressure to compress and the stock slave cylinder doesn't require much volume to move it. Seems like a larger bore would probably make the clutch disengage with less lever travel and that would make modulation a launch more touchy. I don't think I would like that for racing or street riding. Might be advantageous for faster clutch shifting but clutchless shifting will always be fastest if you're really into racing.
Larger bore decreases pressure/increases volume/reduces lever travel.
SO with a larger bore, I would expect more instant reaction to lever actuation. The max power is reduced though because the larger bore creates less fluid pressure.
I'm sure it matters a lot how much pressure and volume are required to do the job too. Ordinary clutch springs don't require a lot of pressure to compress and the stock slave cylinder doesn't require much volume to move it. Seems like a larger bore would probably make the clutch disengage with less lever travel and that would make modulation a launch more touchy. I don't think I would like that for racing or street riding. Might be advantageous for faster clutch shifting but clutchless shifting will always be fastest if you're really into racing.
Mythos
Registered
I've been thinking about buying an expensive Berringer rear brake MC for years but I don't know what size bore to go with. I think the best thing to do is to go with recommendations. It's pretty hard to imagine what more volume but less pressure with less lever travel would be like compared to less volume with more pressure and more lever travel. Then you have to figure in how big is the thing your sending the fluid to and how much pressure does it need to work the way you want it to. You could spend a lot of money on MCs finding just the right one.
If it's just a clutch MC you're looking for, see if there's one with adjustable bore size. I have an Accossato front brake MC for the busa. Having never tried various sized MC bores, I think I'm going to be glad to have the selection of three.
If it's just a clutch MC you're looking for, see if there's one with adjustable bore size. I have an Accossato front brake MC for the busa. Having never tried various sized MC bores, I think I'm going to be glad to have the selection of three.
Berlin Germany
Registered
@Mythos
big error, that i made too
- the bore size you can´t adjust - it is fix !
what you only can change is the distance between throttle grip and brake (or clutch) lever
(depending on the length of your fingers / hand size)
the writing(s) on the pump, e.g. 16-18 say (according to several phone calls with brembo-germany, Munich ), that (in this example)
16 = dia of piston in "mm"
18 = distance in "mm" between lever´s screw (lever´s pivot point) and piston´s pin / connecting point to the lever
i built an excel sheet to calculate (according to the leverage laws) the delta between resulting pressure in the system when
standard "tangential" (5/8" piston) or a "radial" pump (16mm piston) is in use
5/8" = 15,875 mm (very close to 16 ;-) )
result:
the delta pressure is (at radial 16-18) ca. + 40% higher in the system when the hand force is the same.
other way arround - with same hand force the brake works better / get 40% more pressure
(other radial´s piston dia, other pressures, e.g. 17-19 : ca. + 30%)
reason: the leverage at the "tangential" is "worse" than at the radial -
when
precondition - both piston sizes are nearly the same.
big error, that i made too
- the bore size you can´t adjust - it is fix !what you only can change is the distance between throttle grip and brake (or clutch) lever
(depending on the length of your fingers / hand size)
the writing(s) on the pump, e.g. 16-18 say (according to several phone calls with brembo-germany, Munich ), that (in this example)
16 = dia of piston in "mm"
18 = distance in "mm" between lever´s screw (lever´s pivot point) and piston´s pin / connecting point to the lever
i built an excel sheet to calculate (according to the leverage laws) the delta between resulting pressure in the system when
standard "tangential" (5/8" piston) or a "radial" pump (16mm piston) is in use
5/8" = 15,875 mm (very close to 16 ;-) )
result:
the delta pressure is (at radial 16-18) ca. + 40% higher in the system when the hand force is the same.
other way arround - with same hand force the brake works better / get 40% more pressure
(other radial´s piston dia, other pressures, e.g. 17-19 : ca. + 30%)
reason: the leverage at the "tangential" is "worse" than at the radial -
when
precondition - both piston sizes are nearly the same.
Last edited:
Mythos
Registered
@Mythos
big error, that i made too
what you only can change is the distance between throttle grip and brake (or clutch) lever
(depending on the length of your fingers / hand size)
the writing(s) on the pump, e.g. 16-18 say (according to several phone calls with brembo-germany, Munich ), that (in this example)
16 = dia of piston in "mm"
18 = distance in "mm" between lever´s screw (lever´s pivot point) and piston´s pin / connecting point to the lever
i built an excel sheet to calculate (according to the leverage laws) the delta between resulting pressure in the system when
standard "tangential" (5/8" piston) or a "radial" pump (16mm piston) is in use
5/8" = 15,875 mm (very close to 16 ;-) )
result:
the delta pressure is (at radial 16-18) ca. + 40% higher in the system when the hand force is the same.
other way arround - with same hand force the brake works better / get 40% more pressure
(other radial´s piston dia, other pressures, e.g. 17-19 : ca. + 30%)
reason: the leverage at the "tangential" is "worse" than at the radial -
when
precondition - both piston sizes are nearly the same.
Like I said:
Thank you Berlin, I think I understand some of that a little bit. I guess a tangential is the standard MC with the push rod like the stock MC. My Accossato is a radial but I don't even know what radial means. How is it radial? What radiates around what?
So the take home is that a 16 x 18 radial MC makes 40% more fluid pressure using the same amount of hand force. I'm not sure that would be what I want for a clutch MC but it sounds great for a brake MC.
By "hand force" do you mean, kilograms of pressure exerted by the hand on the lever? Or do you mean how far the hand actuates the lever?
Glad to hear you're giving the green light on the adjustable bore MC. I don't think they cost a whole lot more than a fixed bore size MC. The Accossato I got years back was on sale and it was too good of a deal to pass up. Looks exactly like a Brembo but I don't know how it compares for quality and function.
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Berlin Germany
Registered
dear
max big grin as possible
if you ever had felt the clutch with a radial you´ll never wanna other feelings
a one finger clutch is the result - horrible nice feeling - believe in me
stopping at the red light with 1st gear in makes no more a week left hand.
a 10 year old little girl could pull this clutch with one hand - sooooooooooooo easy it works
even if you got stronger clutch springs in the motor.
all friends who tested my standing haya asked me if i had air bubbles in the system - i gave em the key for a short test ride.
after 2 minutes they came back and only asked me what costs may come up to get this too.
BUT
i gave no green light ... etc. - because how do you want to adjust a bore size by a screw or else?
only by replacing the entire pump, but never at one and the same pump.
or do there for example exist adjustable cylinder pistons? NO!
handforce is the power - kilograms of pressure - you need to pull the lever back to reach the same brake power like before.
max big grin as possible
if you ever had felt the clutch with a radial you´ll never wanna other feelings
a one finger clutch is the result - horrible nice feeling - believe in me
stopping at the red light with 1st gear in makes no more a week left hand.
a 10 year old little girl could pull this clutch with one hand - sooooooooooooo easy it works
even if you got stronger clutch springs in the motor.
all friends who tested my standing haya asked me if i had air bubbles in the system - i gave em the key for a short test ride.
after 2 minutes they came back and only asked me what costs may come up to get this too.
BUT
i gave no green light ... etc. - because how do you want to adjust a bore size by a screw or else?
only by replacing the entire pump, but never at one and the same pump.
or do there for example exist adjustable cylinder pistons? NO!
handforce is the power - kilograms of pressure - you need to pull the lever back to reach the same brake power like before.
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