Bazzaz ZFi units and the Busa

JDC

Registered
First off I'm a ZX14 owner, and I do like Haya's. The most beautiful bike to me.

I am wanting to find out if Busa owners who have a Bazzaz ZFi unit, have an issue that appears inherient with the Bazzaz ZFi for the ZX14.

Here is the problem:

warm your bike up first a bit

Hook up your Bazzaz unit ->sofware/PC

In neutral rev the engine up and watch the TP and A/F, and see if the TP actually moves beyond 5%, even when the throttle is at WOT.

If it does not move past 5%, look at what happens to your A/F.

Put it into gear, keeping the clutch in, and see if it acts the same when you throttle it.

On the ZX14 the TP will flutter from 0-5%, from start of Tp position all the way to WOT, and the bike appears to go 'off map' right at the beginning, and stays off map. The A/F goes over 15:1 lean A/F mid RPM range, and the higher the RPM the worse lean condition you get.

This was not an issue with my unit/wiring, as I was at Bazzaz yesterday, and they tested off the shelf units, and they all performed the same. Also they did an initial check for the TP and ground wiring, and that, to them, appeared ok.

Since their software tops at 15:1, you can't really tell how far above that you are lean, but my guess is it maybe dangerously high in the higher to top RPM's.

Being how Haya's are the bikes for drags, as well as the 14's, if it is also inherient in the ZFi for the Haya's, I think this maybe an inheritnt issue with the Bazzaz ZFI unit production.

Different question.

Never been yet, but anyone here hit the drags in S. Calif?
 
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Welcome to the oRg bro. There are quite a few folks that will be along to answer your question. Again, welcome. :beerchug:
 
First off I'm a ZX14 owner, and I do like Haya's. The most beautiful bike to me.

I am wanting to find out if Busa owners who have a Bazzaz ZFi unit, have an issue that appears inherient with the Bazzaz ZFi for the ZX14.

Here is the problem:

warm your bike up first a bit

Hook up your Bazzaz unit ->sofware/PC

In neutral rev the engine up and watch the TP and A/F, and see if the TP actually moves beyond 5%, even when the throttle is at WOT.

If it does not move past 5%, look at what happens to your A/F.

Put it into gear, keeping the clutch in, and see if it acts the same when you throttle it.

On the ZX14 the TP will flutter from 0-5%, from start of Tp position all the way to WOT, and the bike appears to go 'off map' right at the beginning, and stays off map. The A/F goes over 15:1 lean A/F mid RPM range, and the higher the RPM the worse lean condition you get.

This was not an issue with my unit/wiring, as I was at Bazzaz yesterday, and they tested off the shelf units, and they all performed the same. Also they did an initial check for the TP and ground wiring, and that, to them, appeared ok.

Since their software tops at 15:1, you can't really tell how far above that you are lean, but my guess is it maybe dangerously high in the higher to top RPM's.

Being how Haya's are the bikes for drags, as well as the 14's, if it is also inherient in the ZFi for the Haya's, I think this maybe an inheritnt issue with the Bazzaz ZFI unit production.

Different question.

Never been yet, but anyone here hit the drags in S. Calif?

My brother races his Busa competitively w/NHRA and some other SoCal Dragrace Org that I can't remember the name of. He races at Auto Club Speedways Auto Drag Speedway and Las Vegas Motor Speedway. He still utilizes the PCIII, but has a few other units, such as launch control, that he runs. He may have gone Bazzaz but I'll talk to him this Thanksgiving.

BTW-I plan on upgrading my Gixxer to the Bazzaz ZFI-TC unit early next year. I'll do more research and see if I can find any solutions to your problem
 
My brother races his Busa competitively w/NHRA and some other SoCal Dragrace Org that I can't remember the name of. He races at Auto Club Speedways Auto Drag Speedway and Las Vegas Motor Speedway. He still utilizes the PCIII, but has a few other units, such as launch control, that he runs. He may have gone Bazzaz but I'll talk to him this Thanksgiving.

BTW-I plan on upgrading my Gixxer to the Bazzaz ZFI-TC unit early next year. I'll do more research and see if I can find any solutions to your problem

Thanks gtrpimp76.

I plan on getting to the local races, if not before the holidays, then after.
 
I own a Bazzaz Fi-controler and the A/F unit. I was order #32 and beleave to be the 1st big build Busa they did. Now keep in mind the A/F unit is programed to start data logging at 3000rpm. with the bike in gear and rolling; this is why we have gear sensitive mapping you can adjust for your specific application (maybe 1% richer in 4th, 2% richer in 5th etc..) This unit is also ram air sensitive, this is why I sold my P/C and got the Bazzaz. (Sure some great tuners with a hub and multi-data ports and relitively deep pockets can make good adjustments at the strip or LSR's), but for us meer mortals, you can get a good base at a Dyno, and then make on the fly adjustments running the bike, the unit will take into consideration, ram air, temp, atmosphere perssure, etc.. and make the the recommendation within the paramaters of the program and what you asked for ie. 13.2 A/F etc. The unit isn't made to make ajustments when you rev the engine in your garage. The unit "will" help you adjust your idle A/F with a sync. or on its own. When you use the self-mapping remember, it is a program; when you come back from a run and retrieve the info, if in one spot on the map it suggest a say +16 adjustment at 20%TP at 4500rpm. and everything else is maybe +2 or -1 you wouldn't want to apply that +16. (does the bike back fire at that range when you down shift or let off the gas, giving the sniffer a false reading?)

So don't worry about the lean reading when you rev the engine in neutral or with the clutch pulled in, that's not what the unit is made for. I love my Bazzaz; for regular folks on a limited budget you can't beat it.:beerchug:
PM me if you need more help.:thumbsup:
 
RacerxTex:

"This unit is also ram air sensitive, this is why I sold my P/C and got the Bazzaz. (Sure some great tuners with a hub and multi-data ports and relitively deep pockets can make good adjustments at the strip or LSR's), but for us meer mortals, you can get a good base at a Dyno, and then make on the fly adjustments running the bike, the unit will take into consideration, ram air, temp, atmosphere perssure, etc.. "

Yes, I was aware of how the mapping works, etc, but disturbed that it was not reading off the map in neutral, thought it a flaw.

When I first reported this to Bazzaz Monday, they guy said for me to roll the throttle up to WOT and make sure the TP would read in neutral - it did not. I worked on that for a few hours, off and on. So my initial concern about lean was genuine. It took them almost 2 hours to come to the conclusion that it was not supposed to read in neutral, either, after they, in the end, put it on their dyno. Probably not a very asked about issue.

I am guessing when you state it compensates for "ram air" you mean via IAP sensor?

One thing I noted on my AFR is when I had tuned it to 13:1 with flies out, the bike just was not snappy in 3-6 K range, despite the map being pretty spot on.

Had Bazzaz do a custom map and it felt much better, even though it as 13:1 in end result as well, using their O2 sensor.

I am learning a lot, or trying.

Thanks.
 
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so is the the bazzaz a true closed loop setup?

I believe so, but it is not automatic. You ride around data logging to a pre-set A/F you wish your map to be set at, and then after logging for a bit, hook up the PC and retrieve the info, and decide to apply some or all of the recommendations the data logger recorded.

The logger 'averages' the A/F ratio for each cell. You can just do a single run (pull) by keeping the RPM below 3K, until you are in 4th, and have the space/place to WOT it, and then return home below 3K and use that to apply... or just ride around and it will average out for anything above 3K. So in that way it is flexible.

Would be nice to have different types of 'run's pre-set to choose from for the data logging application/software.

Here are some observations I have had so far. (some repeat info). I am not bashing Bazzaz. When ever I get a new gadget, I usually 'test' the limits out of it as I can so I can understand what it is and is not capable of/how it works.

*****

1. the AFR unit and their dyno does not function well for gears 1-3, as the RPM run up is too quick for the unit to log the A/F well/accurately for the cells, so they recommend 4th and up. I then assume that applies equally for street riding/tuning as well.

2. the AFR unit ‘averages’ the A/F ratios that it finally sends over to your Zfi software, so the longer you ride around, the more data that is incorporated into the averaged results that are retrieved when you download the AFR data to your PC, to decide whether to apply some or all, or none of the AFR data to your map. Averaging on the AFR unit is different than their dyno as that logs per run, and does a type of ‘tuning link’ type of run/tune, similar to DynoJet dynos and PowerCommander units.

3. Per Bazzaz, the AFR does not do any data logging for RPM’s below 3K. That does not appear to be any issue/big deal.

4. For me either just riding around gathering data, or keeping the RPM’s below 3K, until 4th gear and blasting the throttle WO, then a casual ride back home to gather the data (which then would have been just one 4th gear run - similar to a single dyno pull), and not averaged since it only came from 1 run in 4th, appears to be the easiest. If you want the ‘averaging’ then just riding around, is even easier. Which one is better for a good performing map/bike? I have no idea.

5. Because the RPM-throttle position in normal runs form sort of a graph in my mind, increasing in both directions, from left to right, there will be cells that are not really ‘covered’ or data logged by the typical use/run of the AFR unit with ‘normal’ riding around/runs, since those cells will be outside of the run (graph) range.

6. Bazzaz appears to use a standard wiring harness for all of it's Fi units, with two connectors for each Fi, an input from the OEM harness to the ZFi unit, and then the output from the ZFi back to the Fi, as well as for most of the other connectors. While that my easily install on most bikes with removable air boxes, where the total ZFi install could take maybe 45 minutes, as Bazzaz states, on the 14, because the airbox is part of the frame, the install onthe 14 it is more like 3, maybe 4 hours relaxed install, requiring some particular tools to get to the connectors in that very tight space. That is a real pain.

My observation is that the Bazzaz unit, for the Fi connectors, TB connector and ‘speed sensor’ (crank), are a total of 12 connectors, all in the center of the bike under/in the tight space of the airbox ceiling-real wall/TB assembly and the far right side of the bike. The 14 has a single connector, on the left outside that is very easy to get to, and if Bazzaz used it, like the PC III folks do, would replace 12 connectors from the ZFi to a simple plug in on the left side of the bike. There would still be several other connectors on the left side as well, but those take about 5 minutes to do. That would then take the install of this kit down to 45 minutes, and it would be a very easy install, as well.

Additionally, if the need arises to remove/disconnect the Fi connectors, et. al. from the bike, you again are looking at the 3-4 hours to get everything back to OEM, should you have the unit or wiring go out while on the road, and you’d need your ‘special’ tools with you. That is a consideration to have in mind if one is contemplating purchasing this unit. My first ZFi unit was bad, but because the wiring harness is disconnectable from the ZFi unit, that helped. Had the wiring harness had an issue, or I needed to return to OEM, the entire thing would have to come out. Before I installed their wiring harness I checked the connectors, as they suggest. There were several that would not stay seated into the connector, so I used a touch of silicone for those wire leads/connectors.

Justification for not putting on a OEM type connector for the 14 was that they had to be purchased in lots of 10,000, which did not justify purchasing since Bazzaz does not have that type of volume in sale for the 14. That is understandable.

However, the fact is the OEM plug can be purchased in lots of 500, and perhaps less. That information was provided to Bazzaz. To me it appeared ‘inconvenient’ for them. The total cost of the plug comes to $5.27, wholesale, when purchased in lots of 500. So for pennies saved, or perhaps a few pennies extra, Bazzaz could service it’s 14 customers much better by using the OEM plug rather than their current setup. After some discussion with Bazzaz, they continue to appear disinterested to consider, despite the great increase in ease for 14 customers, perhaps a little savings for them (?).

7. The resolution for TP has more 'sensitivity/settings for TP percentages, while the RPM has increments of 500 RPM. I do not know how that would realistically compare in real bike use with the PCIII which has TP with less increments, but better RPM (250) increments/resolution.

8. The Bazzaz software could have included many, many options, as the AFR unit grabs the data, so formatting how to use the data, eg acquire only 4th gear only data, or only the first run in 4th gear, etc.. etc could make the software and resulting use very powerful for the purchaser.

There is a bug in the software that makes any cell empty when the A/F is at the setting desired in the software, e.g. if the user selects 13.2 as the desired A/F ratio to data log, when retrieving after runs, any cell that has an A/F ratio of 13.2 then is empty, or = 0 percent. No big deal. However, yesterday I was told something different, and that is when the cell is empty the Bazzaz unit reads from the stock map in the bikes ECU. Those two explainations seem pretty different.

I would think that if you have an empty cell or empty cells, and the stock map has pretty different settings for those cells, that could result in some inconsistent, less than smooth operation of the bike during acceleration. In the times I have seen an empty cell ot two, the cells around them are pretty close usually, meaning they are a few percent up or down from 0. So the better method may be to input something into an empty cell, based upon what is diagnal to it (lower left to upper right).

There is no current work by Bazzaz to resolve the bug, as I understand, or apparently not any work in the software at this time, though they may correct the bug the next time they schedule work on their next software ‘version’. They appear to have no idea when that will be.

In running the custom map made for me, dialed into a specific A/F ratio and using their sensor placed inside right near the O2 sensor I installed from their AFR kit, there were some differences in how the AFR unit would have made changes to their map after the dyno map was made.

The dyno tune/map ‘felt’ better than the AFR tune for the same A/F.

Which one is more accurate? I am guessing the dyno O2 sensor.

Their dyno has the caveats that their O2 sensor is not ‘quick’ enough to log runs in 1-3rd gears, either.

Whenever I have contacted Bazzaz the guys there, Amar, Joel or Del, they have always been very helpful.
 
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Here is a dyno sheet with flies in flies out.

About 4 HP top end and 4 TQ low end gains, but gives twitchy throttle response in 2-3 gears, so really not worth pulling them in an 08, if my bike is the typical response.

FLIESiN-168-FLIESOUT164-MUZZY-163.jpg
 
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JDC

Great write up, Very comprehencive.

I also get the blank cells. As far as the the program not being able to pick up on the 1st-3rd full ons, yeah I've also come across that. In Houston, I have some long strait empty streches of road, so I'll do some long. slow roll ons to red line and then shift etc.. You're right about the hic-ups, to me it sometimes seems more like an art than exact science when mapping with the Bazzaz unit. I'm sorry that Amar seems to be blowing off the 14 riders. Hopefully if he gets more resources they could be more flexable.

The program isn't perfect, and I hope Bazzaz comes out with an "upgrade" in 09 to the software (250rpm incraments and better sensitivity with the A/F loop mapping.)

I do believe in this product, thou not perfect, hopeful Amar and his crew will listen to us and keep improving on what he started with Yoshi and Jordon.:beerchug:
 
RacerxTex,

I agree.

After Monday's visit.. one of them left a message for me on Tue morn for me to call them - but they appear to be always 'on another call' since.

Overall I like the unit, much better than dyno trips when I had the 109 and a PC III.

If you all had a map from the ZFi, at 12.8:1 from their dyno, and another map from the AFR, same bike setup, at 12.8:1, do you think that would be instructive/informative at all?
 
Yes, maybe. Let me explain; Bazzaz, I believe did there best when they tried to pre-map my unit. I gave them all the vidals about my Busa (1507, Marren Fuel rail/w Marren 42lbs injectors, Race port/pollish, Web Cams, blah, blah, blah, you get it) and they still missed the mark (by alot). So after alot of runs (and afew fouled plugs) "I" finally got her dialed in.

Now, a stock bike or one with slip-ons or full 4-1 (Brocks, Yoshi), Yeah I think that would be very instructive/informative.

Sometimes I think this tuning thing is Voodoo or Black Magic only to be shared with a choosen few. So when something new comes out (like Bazzaz) to be shared by all, its a breath of fresh air. Don't get me wrong, I respect the great tuners (Dave Owens RIP,Brock Davidson, Busa Greg, Billy Wiese, even Johnny Cheese.) but when we can empower ourselves to learn this art, with a very user friendly system, nothing but good can come from it IMO.

Happy Thanksgiving!:beerchug:
 
I'll run a fresh 12.8 and after a few days put it up with the 12.8 custom tune, flies out.

I did have a PC III custom tune flies and files in out also, but it just did not feel good after the flies out tune-not snappy/sharp. Normally all my tunes from Mickey Cohen have fell 'on'. I've had over 300 runs on his setup and about 20 or so tunes, between both the 109 and the 14, the last 50 on the 14 with 3 tunes on that bike, flies out the last.
 
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