Baby it's cold outside *





sixpack577

Top Gun
Registered
#42
I'm not sure what a Christian conservative is? Jesus was a decidedly socialist liberal sort of chap when he walked the earth.
Socialism and libera
Most people in Washington are not idealogues. They are Republicans or Democrats because that is their team and their power base. But as far as what they believe, it's no different than the little league team you were assigned to.

But before we tar and feather politician's fake positions, how can a Christian support a president who lies constantly, dishonors women, and who steals? How can a conservative support a president who constantly degrades law enforcement and the intelligence community? Or how can conservatives support a president who spends money like it's going out of style and quips to his staff that he "won't be here to pay the consequences"?

The bottom line is the voters are responsible for this government. We let ourselves be swayed by issues like race that have nothing to do with our livelihoods. Voters facing a future without any health insurance at all vote against Obamacare because it's named after a black president "from Nigeria". If we, the people are suckers, can we complain about being taken advantage of?

For most of this country's existence, Democrats and Republicans were only slightly right or left of center. This made compromise possible, and indeed made the system functional. The right initiated this ideological arms race, but now both sides have retreated to the extremes of left and right. Compromise is not possible - the system is failing.

The constitution is a liberal document. The idea of giving power to the people, filtered only by representational oversight, was radical in a world still full of kingdoms. In it's time it stood as an accomplishment as grand as a walk on the moon. But as enlightened as our founding fathers were, they never contemplated that Americans would purposefully crash the system.

Voters really are not completely responsible for who is in office.
We are given a choice from each party.
A position granted by favoritism, money, and almost always, corruption.
There are good and bad on both sides...but mainly bad.
I can be a christian and vote for Trump because I easily saw and see him as the lesser of 2 evils, and that he has and is doing good things.
A president who lies? Which one hasn't?
A president who dishonors women? Ha! gtfoh! So Trump says, "if you're famous, these women will let you grab em by the p*ssy, they don't care". MeToo my ass, they're called gold diggers.
You don't think any gold diggers were or are interested in Trump? And that he's some monster for speaking the non pc truth?
I forgot that Obama is a saint...same guy that passed the partial birth abortion law.
A woman has sex, fears she's pregnant, takes the morning after pill, fine.
But, if she doesn't, is pregnant, and thinks it's her right to abort the child at 7 months.
Labor is induced, baby comes out...and the back of his or her neck is sliced with a scalpel. They are now just medical waste, aka money from sold organs and stem cells.
Wtf, if there was Ever a double standard, there it is. And it's called murder.
I could go on and on.
I refuse to support or side with people like that.
 

1busa

Registered
#43
Most people in Washington are not idealogues. They are Republicans or Democrats because that is their team and their power base. But as far as what they believe, it's no different than the little league team you were assigned to.

But before we tar and feather politician's fake positions, how can a Christian support a president who lies constantly, dishonors women, and who steals? How can a conservative support a president who constantly degrades law enforcement and the intelligence community? Or how can conservatives support a president who spends money like it's going out of style and quips to his staff that he "won't be here to pay the consequences"?

The bottom line is the voters are responsible for this government. We let ourselves be swayed by issues like race that have nothing to do with our livelihoods. Voters facing a future without any health insurance at all vote against Obamacare because it's named after a black president "from Nigeria". If we, the people are suckers, can we complain about being taken advantage of?

For most of this country's existence, Democrats and Republicans were only slightly right or left of center. This made compromise possible, and indeed made the system functional. The right initiated this ideological arms race, but now both sides have retreated to the extremes of left and right. Compromise is not possible - the system is failing.

The constitution is a liberal document. The idea of giving power to the people, filtered only by representational oversight, was radical in a world still full of kingdoms. In it's time it stood as an accomplishment as grand as a walk on the moon. But as enlightened as our founding fathers were, they never contemplated that Americans would purposefully crash the system.
Arch we agree on a lot of things but this isn’t 1 of them :beerchug:

All I can say is this..... We live in an age where with an iPhone I can have access to unlimited amount of information about anybody. If you are a celebrity or politician etc. I can google anything and everything about you. Some of it may be facts some of it may be lies and some of it may be sprinkled with both. Bottom line is if you are a public figure you have ZERO privacy whatsoever. People will lurk in the bushes snapping photos, secretly record private conversations, and established News/Media networks will publish information before it is even fully vetted. There is a reason why in the last 5 or so years a lot of Politicians have fallen by the wayside time and time again. There’s a reason why certain individuals have refused to run for office or shrunken from the limelight........ Nowadays a simple tweet or post about something you said or did 30 years ago can ruin you personally and financially. Discredit anything good or positive you have achieved or accomplished in your life. It all gets flushed down the toilet by an accusation

Has Trump said some vulgar things or negative comments towards women? Absolutely!!! To that I say let me put a recorder in anybody’s house car or office and let’s record your private conversations and see how many times you offend or say something inappropriate. Let’s get people recorded @ the bar or their home after a couple drinks and let’s see how they really feel!!! Ive been around people from all walks of life from Doctors to your local mechanic and let me tell you NOTHING he said surprised me...... The Left has this Faux outrage about what he said like they’ve had Virgin ears and never heard those words before!?!?

Let me tell you something Trump might’ve said “Grab em by the P@ssy” but Bill Clinton actually had several lawsuits settled and paid compensation to women for actually DOING that very thing!!!! Not speculative or hearsay but FACTS!! He had several sexual harassment complaints and charges filed against him while he was governor of Arkansas. He couldn’t keep his hands off the secretaries and interns all the while his Saint of a wife stood idly by and did nothing!!! So much for being a champion of women’s rights huh??

Trump gets lambasted by the media for having an affair with a pornstar BEFORE he became president. Front page news and on every single TV channel..... Bill Clinton gets found guilty of having an affair WHILE BEING PRESIDENT!!! Actual DNA proof still dried up on Monica’s dress! Testimonials from staff about how he would bang her in the actual OVAL OFFICE in the White House!!! Now if we had 24 hour news coverage and TMZ back then do you think Clinton would’ve gotten elected in the 1st place?? How about John F Kennedy? Do you think he would be as revered and loved if his affairs with Monroe etc were @ the public’s fingertips???

Everybody has skeletons in their closets but projects this holier than thou altar boy facade. Just like the old Japanese proverb
C43AA5D7-F2AB-40F5-ABC6-13F59E4966E7.jpeg
 

fallenarch

THE SLOW RIDER
Registered
#44
Socialism and libera



Voters really are not completely responsible for who is in office.
We are given a choice from each party.
A position granted by favoritism, money, and almost always, corruption.
There are good and bad on both sides...but mainly bad.
I can be a christian and vote for Trump because I easily saw and see him as the lesser of 2 evils, and that he has and is doing good things.
A president who lies? Which one hasn't?
A president who dishonors women? Ha! gtfoh! So Trump says, "if you're famous, these women will let you grab em by the p*ssy, they don't care". MeToo my ass, they're called gold diggers.
You don't think any gold diggers were or are interested in Trump? And that he's some monster for speaking the non pc truth?
I forgot that Obama is a saint...same guy that passed the partial birth abortion law.
A woman has sex, fears she's pregnant, takes the morning after pill, fine.
But, if she doesn't, is pregnant, and thinks it's her right to abort the child at 7 months.
Labor is induced, baby comes out...and the back of his or her neck is sliced with a scalpel. They are now just medical waste, aka money from sold organs and stem cells.
Wtf, if there was Ever a double standard, there it is. And it's called murder.
I could go on and on.
I refuse to support or side with people like that.
But we vote on the choices we have too. And as has been proven in this last election, if you don't like the choices get involved and you can change them. Money in politics is a myth. There are plenty of examples of candidates winning without large bank roles. The internet is the leveling ground against money. We can take things back, truly make America great again. But we will have to get up off our lazy asses and work for it.

As for all the other stuff you are mad about, I don't know. There are many valid positions there, some I agree with some I don't. But you can't let that get in the way of being able to live a decent life. I say let's fix the easy problems we all have in common and then tackle the decisive stuff. That way, if we can't figure it out at least we can live in peace. Right now we go straight to the unresolvable things and end up yelling at each other.
 

fallenarch

THE SLOW RIDER
Registered
#45
Arch we agree on a lot of things but this isn’t 1 of them :beerchug:

All I can say is this..... We live in an age where with an iPhone I can have access to unlimited amount of information about anybody. If you are a celebrity or politician etc. I can google anything and everything about you. Some of it may be facts some of it may be lies and some of it may be sprinkled with both. Bottom line is if you are a public figure you have ZERO privacy whatsoever. People will lurk in the bushes snapping photos, secretly record private conversations, and established News/Media networks will publish information before it is even fully vetted. There is a reason why in the last 5 or so years a lot of Politicians have fallen by the wayside time and time again. There’s a reason why certain individuals have refused to run for office or shrunken from the limelight........ Nowadays a simple tweet or post about something you said or did 30 years ago can ruin you personally and financially. Discredit anything good or positive you have achieved or accomplished in your life. It all gets flushed down the toilet by an accusation

Has Trump said some vulgar things or negative comments towards women? Absolutely!!! To that I say let me put a recorder in anybody’s house car or office and let’s record your private conversations and see how many times you offend or say something inappropriate. Let’s get people recorded @ the bar or their home after a couple drinks and let’s see how they really feel!!! Ive been around people from all walks of life from Doctors to your local mechanic and let me tell you NOTHING he said surprised me...... The Left has this Faux outrage about what he said like they’ve had Virgin ears and never heard those words before!?!?

Let me tell you something Trump might’ve said “Grab em by the P@ssy” but Bill Clinton actually had several lawsuits settled and paid compensation to women for actually DOING that very thing!!!! Not speculative or hearsay but FACTS!! He had several sexual harassment complaints and charges filed against him while he was governor of Arkansas. He couldn’t keep his hands off the secretaries and interns all the while his Saint of a wife stood idly by and did nothing!!! So much for being a champion of women’s rights huh??

Trump gets lambasted by the media for having an affair with a pornstar BEFORE he became president. Front page news and on every single TV channel..... Bill Clinton gets found guilty of having an affair WHILE BEING PRESIDENT!!! Actual DNA proof still dried up on Monica’s dress! Testimonials from staff about how he would bang her in the actual OVAL OFFICE in the White House!!! Now if we had 24 hour news coverage and TMZ back then do you think Clinton would’ve gotten elected in the 1st place?? How about John F Kennedy? Do you think he would be as revered and loved if his affairs with Monroe etc were @ the public’s fingertips???

Everybody has skeletons in their closets but projects this holier than thou altar boy facade. Just like the old Japanese proverb
Pretty hard to objectively defend Trumps character guys. Not trying to be confrontational but that's just a fact. Bill & Hillary are both SOB's.
 

1busa

Registered
#46
Pretty hard to objectively defend Trumps character guys. Not trying to be confrontational but that's just a fact. Bill & Hillary are both SOB's.
Not justifying or defending Arch just keeping it real....

Is Trump a saint?? Hell No!!! Never met the guy in real life but I’m sure he’s every bit the Pompous @sshole he projects on tv. I don’t trust him or any politician for that matter. But you gotta admit the scrutiny and attacks professionally and personally have been unprecedented.
 
#47
I find this thread (or it's current tangent) interesting for a few reasons.

1st is the fact that there has been no name calling so far and that is very refreshing. Adults actually acting like adults and having a conversation about hard, divisive issues. A whole lot of people could learn something from the nature of this conversation.

2nd is re-enforcement of the right-left "war". For the most part the people are not that far off from each other once you get down to brass tacks and talk face to face, person to person. But discussions of ideology at a higher level breeds the anger.

3rd and finally I find it funny in a sick sort of way because I think it's too late to reconcile the country and fix the divide. The divide is deep, it is personal, and it has fundamentally broken our country. Eventually the population centers will win control of the government (democrats for lack of a better word) and they will try to enforce their vision of the world upon the other 97% of the land mass in the U.S. (republicans for lack of a better word). That is when you will have a huge problem. The government won't be able to control it all and we have the next civil war.

The die is cast it's just a matter of time. I hope I am wrong for our children's sake but I work at a college and I'm not sure they deserve any better.
 
#48
Can I just point out that we, the members here, are able to have this conversation, over the internet no less, and keep it civil and productive. We probably represent a good cross section of the country, with the exception of a low female representation, but differences in politics, race, income and religion are well represented here I think. Yes, we have varying viewpoints and we are obviously very passionate about some things, but we have kept it from devolving into a virtual screaming match. We acknowledge our differences, give credit to opposing viewpoints where it is due, and discuss like the adults we are. If we, a group of people who have come together over a shared love of a hobby and a bike, are able to accomplish this, why in the EFF can't people who are paid professionals manage this?
 

1busa

Registered
#49
I find this thread (or it's current tangent) interesting for a few reasons.

1st is the fact that there has been no name calling so far and that is very refreshing. Adults actually acting like adults and having a conversation about hard, divisive issues. A whole lot of people could learn something from the nature of this conversation.

2nd is re-enforcement of the right-left "war". For the most part the people are not that far off from each other once you get down to brass tacks and talk face to face, person to person. But discussions of ideology at a higher level breeds the anger.

3rd and finally I find it funny in a sick sort of way because I think it's too late to reconcile the country and fix the divide. The divide is deep, it is personal, and it has fundamentally broken our country. Eventually the population centers will win control of the government (democrats for lack of a better word) and they will try to enforce their vision of the world upon the other 97% of the land mass in the U.S. (republicans for lack of a better word). That is when you will have a huge problem. The government won't be able to control it all and we have the next civil war.

The die is cast it's just a matter of time. I hope I am wrong for our children's sake but I work at a college and I'm not sure they deserve any better.
The reason for this is the people on here debating have been on this forum for quite a while. We may not have met each other in real life so 2 speak but we share a common interest “Busa’s” and have a mutual respect for 1 another.

Notice Who and Who isn’t commenting.....
 
#50
I find this thread (or it's current tangent) interesting for a few reasons.

1st is the fact that there has been no name calling so far and that is very refreshing. Adults actually acting like adults and having a conversation about hard, divisive issues. A whole lot of people could learn something from the nature of this conversation.

2nd is re-enforcement of the right-left "war". For the most part the people are not that far off from each other once you get down to brass tacks and talk face to face, person to person. But discussions of ideology at a higher level breeds the anger.

3rd and finally I find it funny in a sick sort of way because I think it's too late to reconcile the country and fix the divide. The divide is deep, it is personal, and it has fundamentally broken our country. Eventually the population centers will win control of the government (democrats for lack of a better word) and they will try to enforce their vision of the world upon the other 97% of the land mass in the U.S. (republicans for lack of a better word). That is when you will have a huge problem. The government won't be able to control it all and we have the next civil war.

The die is cast it's just a matter of time. I hope I am wrong for our children's sake but I work at a college and I'm not sure they deserve any better.
I too work at a college, and you're not wrong about what a lot of them deserve.
I do think that the divide is fixable, but only if people realize that most of our divisions are artificial in nature. That is to say that as you rightly point out, when we actually talk to one another, we find out that we have far more in common than we don't. We must wake up to the fact that our divisions are being manipulated by those on both sides, those who seek to divide and conquer. Why do you think politicians paint the world outside your window as being a terrible place, somewhere that it is dangerous to venture out into? Could it be because they have a vested interest in us remaining isolated?
 
#52
The reason for this is the people on here debating have been on this forum for quite a while. We may not have met each other in real life so 2 speak but we share a common interest “Busa’s” and have a mutual respect for 1 another.

Notice Who and Who isn’t commenting.....
I did notice:D

I too work at a college, and you're not wrong about what a lot of them deserve.
I do think that the divide is fixable, but only if people realize that most of our divisions are artificial in nature. That is to say that as you rightly point out, when we actually talk to one another, we find out that we have far more in common than we don't. We must wake up to the fact that our divisions are being manipulated by those on both sides, those who seek to divide and conquer. Why do you think politicians paint the world outside your window as being a terrible place, somewhere that it is dangerous to venture out into? Could it be because they have a vested interest in us remaining isolated?
I don't think it will be fixed mainly because there is now too much power and wealth located in the DC. The kind of force (political, social etc.) it would take to remove it would be staggering. Kind of like cutting off someones head to cure them of brain cancer. I do believe the only way out is for an Article V constitutional convention called by the states to put limits on the federal government. As I say that an old saying comes to mind "A snowballs chance in He!!"
 

sixpack577

Top Gun
Registered
#53
I'm not sure what a Christian conservative is? Jesus was a decidedly socialist liberal sort of chap when he walked the earth.
I would agree.
In a perfect world, with Jesus in charge(As if you are a beliver you know that Jesus is willingly and purposely Not in charge of this world. As evil is given free reign, which is part of life. Life is a gift, and the gift is a test.
Without adversity, we do not grow, and a perfect world would then be pointless).
liberal fairness, and the kindness and support of socialism only works in a society where people truly care about one another.
Here on earth, with sin and greed, corrupt governments calling the shots, and a small percentage of decent people, those systems just don't work very well...because someone's feelings will always be hurt...or worse.
Can't we all just get along? No.
And, am I a hypocrit and screwup?
Absoloutely.
 
#54
I have found in my limited experience of watching US politics that there were a number of leaders from both sides that i thought were great Orators They spoke in a positive manner and were seen by me to truly care about the country and its citizens . I have also found they are getting fewer and further apart.
Putting the politics and the party's aside as best i can
In recent years I felt that Ronald Reagan And the first Lady Nancy brought Grace and dignity back to the White House. I think they felt the Office of the president was a honour rather than a political plum. When i would listen to his speeches I felt he was a fine speaker. I credit this to his acting skills . But never the less he delivered great speeches and it was under his watch that the wall came down. This after years of Living in the fear of Nuclear Holocost just a moments away under previous presidents Carter and Ford and a rising of the peacniks who seemed very much in the hold of the USSR propaganda machine
I got the feeling the The younger George Bush Had a genuine belief in the goodness of the American people and a love of country. He had the misfortune of having 9/11 on his watch but I felt his handling of the children he was with at that moment and his later responses were reasonable for a nation not use to having war brought inside its borders.
I felt That Barak Obama gave a feeling of being "one of us" He spoke in a clear voice with an almost Folksy manner. For the most part he seemed to want to speak to all the citizens of the United States . Not just the ones who voted for him. As divisive as his presidency became (which i blame on those behind the scenes who so desperatly wanted back in power and those who wanted to keep it That they would stop at nothing to get it) he was i felt the most recent chance at a return to a more moderate divide between left and right .
Others will not agree for a variety of reasons but for what it is worth those are my observations and thoughts
 

sixpack577

Top Gun
Registered
#55
I did notice:D



I don't think it will be fixed mainly because there is now too much power and wealth located in the DC. The kind of force (political, social etc.) it would take to remove it would be staggering. Kind of like cutting off someones head to cure them of brain cancer. I do believe the only way out is for an Article V constitutional convention called by the states to put limits on the federal government. As I say that an old saying comes to mind "A snowballs chance in He!!"
Yep.
And I think if this current system was overthrown, that it would just be replaced with something worse.
Optimist I am, lol.
 
#56
I don't think it will be fixed mainly because there is now too much power and wealth located in the DC. The kind of force (political, social etc.) it would take to remove it would be staggering. Kind of like cutting off someones head to cure them of brain cancer. I do believe the only way out is for an Article V constitutional convention called by the states to put limits on the federal government. As I say that an old saying comes to mind "A snowballs chance in He!!"
I don't agree that it'll take force to change it, but it will take a shift in understanding like the beheading you mention. I think the shift will be incremental, but it will happen. A constitutional convention would be interesting to watch unfold, but you're on point with your analogy. Too many people in positions of power have far too much to lose to allow that to take place.
 
#58
it does seem that of late the middle class is shrinking as the rich get richer and the rest of us stay the same or fall back a bit
That said I am lucky or blessed depending on your point of view. I have a house to live I food in the fridge heat in my home and security of my person(for the most part I am no fool). I do not know what more I need to be honest. I do however have a long list of things Would Like :)
 
#59
Amendments I would like to see come out of an Article V convention would be Term limits for all Senators and Representatives along with a total limit so that, for example, one person couldn't spend 8 years as a rep., 12 years as a senator, and 8 years as president.

Limit federal spending to a percentage of GDP and require a percentage be used to pay down the debt until it is paid off. Only allow Federal borrowing it times of war as declared by a 3/4 vote by both houses of congress.

Repeal the 17th amendment. Passing the 17th was one of the biggest mistakes our country ever made.
 
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