4th of July::::Freedom has a Cost.

OB_Horse

Registered
Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the
Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured
beforethey died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost
their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary
War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their
sacred honor.

What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven
were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of
means,well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence
knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships
swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to
pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his
family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his
family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty
was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton,
Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr, noted that the British General
Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly
urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed and
Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his
wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13
children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to
waste ,he found his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later
he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.

Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and
sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed,
rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education.

They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight,
and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with
firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually
pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books
never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't
fight just the British.

We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government!
Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. So
take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently
thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid.


Father Denis Edward O'Brien, USMC, could not have said it better.

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the
press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to
demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath
the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester
to burn the flag."

Remember: freedom is never free! Patriotism is NOT a sin and the Fourth of
July has more to it than beer, picnics, and baseball games.

Have a happy holiday.
 
Yes I got this last week mkaes you think.
But just ask Packa they have no guns down under. That is why I am here!!!

[This message has been edited by Johnnycheese (edited 28 June 2000).]
 
Oh come on!! I can't believe you fell for this load of horseshit. Can't Americans be patriotic without having to engage in a fictitious glurge-fest?? The truth is that NOT ONE signer of the Declaration of Independence died or was even tortured because of his signature on that document. Better to remember those that REALLY died in defense of the principles upon which America is founded - including those unnamed civilians and soldiers that have died in the wars, police actions and peace-keeping missions that have occurred since the start of the Revolutionary War. If you want to read the REAL story of the signers of the Declaration, here it is . . .
____________________________________

At the risk of being termed anti-patriotic (or worse), the following clarification was published in a newsgroup where "The Price of Liberty" was posted. Other than verify that Prof. Harlowe does exist (ref. http://www.etown.edu/home/mcdonald/Direct.htm) I have not verified the info.


Here is the "true" story (at least as far as one researcher, Professor Harlowe, has found):

On at least one website, Gary Hildreth, of Erie PA, is listed as the author of "The Price they Paid".


Professor Harlowe says:

Here is what I have been able to find based on a few hours in my university's limited library and the book, "The Signers of the Declaration of Independence", by Robert G. Ferris and Richard E. Morris of the U.S. National Park Service (Arlington, VA: Interpretive Publications, Inc., 1982).

NO SIGNER WAS KILLED OUTRIGHT BY THE BRITISH. Lets examine some of the statements more closely.

>"Five signers were captured by the British as traitors and tortured before they died."

This passage, to me at least, implies that the signer were captured under charges of treason and died under torture.

Five signers were indeed captured by the British, but not necessarily as traitors.

Richard Stockton (NJ) was the only one who was probably captured and imprisoned just for having signed the Declaration of Independence. Ferris and Morris also note that he was not well treated in captivity and was in ill health when released. He never completely recovered. He did not die in prison, however.

George Walton (GA) commanded militia at the Battle of Savannah in December, 1778. He was wounded and captured at that time. Thus he would have been considered a prisoner of war, not a traitor. He was released within a year, which implies that his signature on the Declaration was not as important a factor in his captivity as his active military role in defending Savannah (prisoners of war were exchanged on a regular basis, a traitor would have been hanged). Walton lived to serve as Governor of Georgia and U.S. Senator, dying in 1804.

Thomas Heyward, Jr., Arthur Middleton, and Edward Rutledge (SC) were all captured at the Siege of Charleston in 1780. They were held at St. Augustine (then under British control) until September 1781 with other Continentals.

Two months after his release, Arthur Middleton returned to Philadelphia to resume his seat in the Continental Congress. Despite the destruction of his estate, he was able to rebuild it and live there until his death in 1787.

Edward Rutledge sat in the State Legislature from 1782 to 1798. He was elected Governor of South Carolina but died before completing his term...in 1800. Ferris and Morris report that he died a very wealthy man.

Thomas Heyward, Jr. served as a circuit court judge from 1782 to 1787. He served as a state legislator at the same time. Heyward lived well into the 19th century, dying in 1809.

I checked about 8 general histories of the American War for Independence and one or two specialized works on the southern campaigns. None of them even mentioned that signers had been captured at Charleston or Savannah, let alone mention that any were singled out for harsh treatment. This seems to indicate that their capture was part of the "normal" course of war, not a special effort.

After the British took Charleston, Gen. Sir Henry Clinton had men of military age left in the city rounded up. Most were released soon after, including most of the militia troops. He had originally allowed the officers to keep their swords, but changed his mind when they began to shout rebel slogans. Only the Contintental troops were held for any length of time (Middlekauff, The Glorious Revolution)

I found only one reference to the treatment of prisoners from the southern campaigns, in Lynn Montross, "Rag, Tag, and Bobtail". This work states that the continental troops from the siege of Charleston were held on prison ships. Conditions were poor and about a third of the prisoners died.

If one takes the word "torture" to mean pain and suffering, then I suppose these men were tortured. To my mind, however, torture implies an intentional infliction on pain, usually either to extract information or to punish. I have found no evidence of the latter.

Here is an interesting passage from Larry G. Bowman, North Texas St. Univ., on Prisoners of war:

"Prisoners of war did suffer during the American Revolution. No other conclusion can be reached regarding the welfare of captives on both sides. Men were beaten, deprived of food by corrupt officials, denied bedding and clothing, and harassed in other ways but, fortunately, such incidents of outright cruelty were not routine events. Actually, most of the suffering of the men came from the more subtle torment usually brought on by neglect on the part of their captors. Neither the American nor the British authorities sought to induce suffering among the men in their prisons, yet men did want for basic services. The shortcomings on both sides of the conflict in providing for the captives was evident, but the motivations behind the failures were not evil or vindictive in their origination. Neither party entered a program of deliberately tormenting prisoners." Encyclopedia of the American Revolution, v. II, p. 1334 (New York: Garland Publishing, 1993).

>So, when Hildreth writes, "But they signed the Declaration of > Independence, knowing full well that the penalty would be > death if they were captured."

The British undoubtedly put a price on the heads of rebel political officials (not just signers) and the signers no doubt feared that the British would make good on the threat. The reality is, however, that none were executed for their treason.

Let's look at another assertion....

>Nine of the fifty-six fought and died from wounds or the hardship of the > Revolutionary War.

On my list two were wounded in action, but NONE DIED OF WOUNDS. My count shows 17--not 9--men who held commissions (or did medical duty) during the war. With the possible exception of Thomas Lynch, Jr. and Gwinnett, I would not say that any death here was attributable to the war with the British. Gwinnett's death, though, is hardly glorious:

1. Josiah Bartlett (NH) as surgeon with Gen. John Stark's troops at Bennington. Bartlett declined national offices (citing fatigue or ill health) but remained active in state affairs and died in 1794.

2. Button Gwinnett (GA) in a failed campaign to take St. Augustine. Killed in a duel precipitated partly by an argument over military strategy in 1777.

2a. George Clymer served with the Pennsylvania militia. Died in 1813.

3. Thomas Heyward, Jr. (SC). Wounded in 1779 near Port Royal Island, SC. Recovered and served in the siege of Charleston. Died 1809.

4. Thomas Lynch, Jr. (SC) Military career cut short by illness in 1775. He then was elected to the Continental Congress. In an attempt to restore his health, he left for the West Indies, but was shipwrecked and killed in 1779.

5. Arthur Middleton (SC) Captured at the siege of Charleston. See above.

6. Lewis Morris (NY) Brigadier General of Westchester Co. troops during the NY invasion. After the war, he served in state government and was active in public affairs. Died 1798.

7. Thomas Nelson, Jr. (VA) commanded the Virginia militia. Served in several campaigns in Virginia, including Yorktown. Nelson's retirement from public life was financially motivated. He died in 1789.

8. William Paca (MD) Served in the Maryland militia. After the war, he was active in MD. affairs and served as a Federal district judge after the Constitution was ratified. Died in 1799.

9. Caesar Rodney (DE). Brigadier General of militia. Active in campaigns against Loyalists in Delaware. Despite having advanced skin cancer, Rodney served as president of Delaware, and speaker of the state senate until his death in 1783.

10. Benjamin Rush (PA). Appointed surgeon general of the Middle Department of the Continental Army. Resigned after 8 months in a dispute over charges he made that the medical corps was not run properly. Extremely active in public affairs, both medical and governmental, Rush died in 1813.

11. Edward Rutledge (SC) Served at the battle of Port Royal Island (1779). Captured at the siege of Charleston. See above.

12. James Smith (PA) Brigadier General of militia. Practiced law until he retired at age 82 in 1801. He died in 1806.

13. George Walton (GA) Colonel of militia. Wounded at the Battle of Savannah, 1778. Died in 1804.

14. William Whipple (NH). Brigadier General of militia. Saw quite a bit of active service, including the Saratoga and Newport campaigns. Died, aged 55, in 1785.

15. William Williams (CT). Colonel of militia to 1776. Mostly active in state affairs, he died in 1811.

16. Oliver Wolcott (CT). Rose to Major General of militia. Wolcott served in the Saratoga campaign and the defense of Ct. against loyalist raids from NY. Lived to attend the Constitutional Convention and to serve as Governor of Ct. Died 1797.

Some, like John Hart or Thomas Nelson, died of fatigue or exhaustion brought on by travel and active service. In that sense, the war may indeed have shortened their lives. Then again, how can we know in an age where illness was so commonplace. By the way, would we accept "fatigue" as a cause of death today? Or would we find some more precise explanation. In any case, I don't know if I would list this cause of death in the same sentence as a reference to battle service.

Now....Let's look at some of the personal stories told....

>Carter Braxton of Virginia, wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships > swept from the sea by the British navy. He sold his home and properties to >pay his debts, and died in rags.

Ferris and Morris tell a similar story, but watch the twist: "The War for Independence brought financial hardships to Braxton. At its beginning, he had invested heavily in shipping, but the British captured most of his vessels and ravaged some of his plantations and extensive landholdings. COMMERCIAL SETBACKS IN LATER YEARS RUINED HIM." (p. 42). If Braxton sold his home, he did not sell all of them. This entry also notes that Braxton was able to retain his family seat at Chericoke, and died in his Richmond townhouse.

No doubt Braxton's fortunes were changed by the war, but can we say, truthfully, that his death in poverty was entirely due to the sacrifices of war???

>Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his >family almost constantly. He served in Congress without pay, and his family >was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his >reward.

So far, this is correct. But Ferris and Morris state that McKean was able to rebuild his fortune" "McKean lived out his live quietly in Philadelphia. He died in 1817 at the age of 83, survived by his second wife and four of the 11 children from his marriages. He was buried in Laurel Hill Cemetery. HIS SUBSTANTIAL ESTATE CONSISTED OF STOCKS, BONDS, AND HUGE LAND TRACTS IN PENNSYLVANIA (p. 102).

> British soldiers looted the properties of Ellery, Clymer, Hall, Walton, > Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge and Middleton.

Also William Floyd (NY), John Hart (NC), William Hooper (NC), Philip Livingston (NY), Lewis Morris (NY).

Oddly, enough, however, the British had the opportunity to loot the homes of several very prominent signers and did not do so. Although the British evacuated Boston before the signing, why didn't the British vandalize the homes of well-known rebels such as Sam Adams and John Hancock during their occupation of Boston?

The British occupied Philadelphia through the winter of 1777, yet the homes of Benjamin Franklin (who surely must have been public enemy #1), James Wilson, Benjamin Rush, Robert Morris. James Wilson's home was attacked by Americans, including militiamen, during food shortages in 1779 (does it count if the suffering was caused by your own side?).

Thomas Jefferson was almost captured at Monticello. Why didn't the British burn the estate?

>At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr. noted that the British > General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. > The owner quietly urged General George Washington to open fire, which was > done. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Ferris and Morris also repeat this story, although they qualify it as "family legend". Nelson was unable to rebuild his fortunes after the war and did indeed die in poverty.

> Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The British jailed > his wife, and soon after she died.

This is true. Although Lewis lived until 1802 (and was 89 when he died), he essentially retired from public life after his wife's death.

>John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 > children fled for their lives. His fields and his grist mill were laid > waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning > home after the war to find his wife dead, his children vanished. A few weeks > later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.

The story is essentially true, but Hart survived two years after his return from exhile, not a few weeks.

Morris and Livingston suffered similar fates

Philip Livingston, a member of the extremely influential NY Livingston family, had several properties in New York and Brooklyn that were occupied by the British. He sold other properties to support the war effort before fleeing the British occupation of NY. He died, at the age of 62, in 1778.

There were two signers of the Declaration surnamed Morris. LEWIS Morris of New York, had to flee his home, Morrisania, which was damaged in the British occupation. Ferris and Morris note that he was able to rebuild Morrisania.

ROBERT Morris, of Pennsylvania may be even more intriguing. Generally recognized for his fundraising efforts during the war, he was later accused (though vindicated) by Thomas Paine of profiteering. As Superintendent of Finance (1781-1784) he was responsible for keeping the young country afloat financially. In 1789, he declined to serve as Secretary of the Treasury (Alexander Hamilton got the job), but served instead as a Senator from PA. Morris' own financial dealings were not as successful. He speculated on western lands on credit, lived extremely well, and embarked on an ambitious home building project. All of this led to personal bankruptcy and time in debtor's prison in 1798. His wife was granted a pension that sustained the family. Robert Morris died in 1806.

So there you have it. A grain of truth in everything, but some broad wording that makes for a good story but an inaccurate portrayal of our founders. Brooke ------------------------------------------ E. Brooke Harlowe Asst. Prof. and Coordinator, Intl Studies major/minor Dept. of Political Science Susquehanna University Selinsgrove PA 17870

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Thanks for the History,I always tell my wife and friends and my daugther about the men and women who served for this country and I try my best to hang out the American Flag on those days and never forget what it stands for. My family tree which is the McComber on the Scotish/Irish side of our family did fight against the Brits,the family moved on to Hawaii and settled in Kau Hawaii where they built a church and brought the Christian faith to the Hawaiian people.The McComber married into the Hawaiian families and that is why my friends say I'm to much of a rebel and freedom warrior.I just hate to see people being burned at the cross for being what they want to be with out hurting other people.I guess this year I'm flying the AMERICAN flag Higher than ever.Ride Safe all
 
Nice "Unverified Summary" of the facts, which
ranks a with low validity scores as well.

Iam a Soldier. Are you?
 
Sniff.
I still get choked up at baseball games singing the star spangled banner.

America kicks *** . (No offense to all other great countries out there.)
 
Heres something else to think of:
HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE BILL CLINTON'S FRIEND?

The following is a list of dead people connected with Bill Clinton:

James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater
partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He
was a key witness in Ken
Starr's investigation.

Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a
Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was
to go public with her story of sexual harassment
in the White House.

Vince Foster - Former white House councilor, and colleague of Hillary
Clinton at Little Rock's Rose law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the
head, ruled a suicide.

Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have
died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation
reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull resembling a
gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and
spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors.

C. Victor Raiser II & Montgomery Raiser - Major players in the Clinton fund
raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.

Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead
in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by Clinton as a
"Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods
in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died
on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed
Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey
was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little Rock.
Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock.
Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly
threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were
mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a
"Black Book" of people containing names of influential people who visited
prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide.
He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson - Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, died in May
1994 was found dead in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was
ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she
was going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill
Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible
corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton - Arkansas state Trooper and fiancée of Kathy Ferguson.
Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancée, he was found dead in
June,1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his
fiancée.

Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton friend Dan Lassater died by jumping out
a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug
distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant - Sub-contractor for the CIA related to the
Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. Died of three gunshot wounds.

Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was
Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head,
ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until
her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and
Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparent
suicide in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with
Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June
22,1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet
Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp.
Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August
15, 1993. Was investigating Morgan Guarantee
scandal.

Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown
and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised
nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang
special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care
Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane
crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council
personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, Death was no accident.

Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Clinton in the
trunk of a car left in his repair shop. Died when his car hit a utility
pole.

Stanley Huggins - Suicide. Investigated Madison Guarantee. His report was
never released.

Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when
his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say
the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation.
Controversial case where initial report of death was due to falling asleep
on railroad track. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before
being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their
testimony could come before a Grand Jury.


THE FOLLOWING SEVEN PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES / HENRY CASE:
Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck
July, 1988

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found urned in a trash dump in
April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. Coroner ruled death due to natural causes.

Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup
truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - Was a suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. Was killed in a
set-up robbery July 1989

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD

Major William S. Barkley Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan

SOMETHING SERIOUS TO THINK ABOUT.
 
Horse,

I note that you pick on my post because it is "unverified." That's pretty hypocritical. Your post cites NO references whatsoever for the entertaining but fictitious legend of the signers of the Declaration. I, on the other hand, at least ATTEMPTED to cite some references that could be researched if folks so desired. So why don't you get YOUR alleged facts verified before accusing others of posting "unverified" claims. Also, your status as a soilder, while admirable, does nothing to add credibility to your story. I salute you (seriously) for your commitment to serve the United States. But that doesn't render your posts any more truthful than mine. Without references, I would dare say your posts are subject to even greater skepticism. My status as a soilder or nonsoilder is immaterial - suffice to say that I love and appreciate the freedoms and opportunities of living in a free society. I also admire and respect those that fought and died to preserve that freedom. I just don't need heart-tugging FICTION to appreciate that.
 
We're talking 4th of July, Not Foreplay by the President.To all the Veterans and pass War Hero's and shipyard workers and airplane builders Have a Great 4th of July.Ride Safe all.
 
“I found only one reference to the treatment of prisoners from the southern campaigns, in Lynn Montross, "Rag, Tag, and Bobtail". This work states that the continental troops from the siege of Charleston were held on prison ships. Conditions were poor and about a third of the prisoners died.

If one takes the word "torture" to mean pain and suffering, then I suppose these men were tortured. To my mind, however, torture implies an intentional infliction on pain, usually either to extract information or to punish. I have found no evidence of the latter.â€￾

I am not going to debate your entire post because you are an idiot and I do not have a lot of time to prove how idiotic you are so we will treat your hero E. Brooke Harlow. The two paragraphs above provide sufficient evidence for me to make my point. In the second paragraph your hero E Brooke Harlow argues whether prisoners held on ships were actually tortured and based on his definition of torture he has found no evidence of torture.

No evidence of torture? Forget about the fact that most sailors on Naval Vessels during that period led a miserable existence and logic would dictate that prisoners were treated worse than sailors who routinely died of disease and exposure. Do you consider living offshore on a wooden boat exposed to the elements in the wintertime to be a form of torture? Do you think that being deprived of clean water and adequate food is torture? What about being held under these conditions watching 1/3 of all the people around you die? If both you and Mr. Harlow were on that boat I’d imagine you might think that it is torture. But being the high-minded intellectuals you both are you may not.

Sorry to bore you with the “heart tuggingâ€￾ and “horse **** â€￾ but in my opinion just signing the Declaration of Independence took allot of courage. Forget about the fact that some of them did actually serve their country during the war.

BTW: Your post is no more scholarly than the first one. There is only one print source cited and your hero is only an Assistant Professor of Political Science whose specialty is in Latin America and International Relations who teaches at a nondescript school. If you want to impress me quote someone who is a revolutionary war expert and who has actually been tenured.

God Bless America!
 
Verified or Unverified, We all stand in the Best Country in the World if not the Universe. There was a cost & many made it. To denounce the effort with the term fiction may be accurate for "Third Party" descriptions,
but careful on the Military Integrity Bash my friend. Fortunately, we can appreciate all the sacrifices & Iam neither a better man than you....being a soldier has been a Risk, and when young, well you never know if your number will come up -- its easy to be Bias in the Service cause there are many that stand ready to face a Consequence they know not of..... History for now is written & unless we have a time machine, well guess you never have absolute verification/validity. Perhaps such Detail in Critique should be Daily after the National News Broadcasts? Theres a Good Job for a Professional Editor/Verifier.

"Good Day"
HayaBusty...
Horse
 
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