2008 Hayabusa vs ZX-14 on the dyno

[whitesands]

Look at the A/F ratio....Basically, the ZX14 has a very rich stock A/F ratio so it's not surprizing...The Suzuki just flat comes with better stock fuel mapping....Ricky Gadsons ZX14 also had extremely rich readings...


Completely stock the suzuki is going to be stronger...There's little more room for improvement on the ZX14 because the A/F ratio so so far off...


Looks like the Hayabusa is the HP leader.

 

[Lamb busa]

Thanks for the dyno work rotts! Lamb likes good solid effort, and you appear to have done your best in this department. Quick question though, does the ram air( whatever you call it) have any effect on horsepower and how would you measure that since it would be hard to hook up a machine to blow a 150 mph wind into the ducts? Just wondering.

 

[Haya01B]

I think I will take this info better than the guys that are dumping race gas in and other crap to get the hp up. I don't run race gas on the street, so why would I want to see some numbers credited to running race gas?

 

[The Big Red One]

I am sorry all of you feel like there was some agenda here. If anything I would have thought the dyno operator would have a bias TOWARD the ZX-14 not against it. The ZX-14 was owned by the dyno owner and the Busa was mine.
I watched him make the runs back to back and no funny business was done. I have no axe to grind either way and there are usually just as many Kawasaki's in my garage as there are Suzuki's. I have owned a ZX-10 nitrous bike a turbo ZX-12 and currently I have a 07 ZX-6 so I am not exactly a Suzuki diehard either.

We just reported what happened on two stock bikes and both were 2008 models not a 2007 ZX-14 as claimed earlier. Again I am sorry everyone feels scammed but we will wait and see what other dynos report to see if this is consistent or not. As for the numbers being low overall, this dyno is known to be very conservative overall when compared to others so it doesnt surprise me that the busa only pulled 170 here. Motorcyclist got 172 on their busa and of course it had more miles than our 290ish bike. But the point is these were ran back to back and are good for comparing one bike to the other. Not comparing this dyno number to somebody else's dyno numbers.

I gotta admit Don...even tho you had some imput in the motorcyclist article ( and good work it was  

), I have sensed here and on the other forum you linked us to that you did have a bit of an agenda. Being as how you were involved with the article, and it seems bikes in general, I figured you prolly had a rough idea from reading and being on the net the kinda hp numbers that are average for the 14...and to an extent the new busa. I do read alot and maybe I'm more informed than other folks.....but the numbers you posted up from your dyno experiences weren't very believable. I assumed you prolly would realize that 159 hp from a 14 is bordering on ridiculous under any circumstances, and figured you must of had an angle. It sounds like maybe you honestly think those are acceptable, so sorry if I insinuated you had other motives. But I guarantee you no matter where you search...magazines, forums, net, euro specs/mags/tests ect....anywhere, you won't find a brand new healthy 06-7, let alone 08 14 putting out 159 hp. I've read everything around on both these bikes and those numbers just aint working. Here's a link to Sportriders dyno chart of a 2006 14...174.7 rwhp and 105.3 torque...hmmmm  

http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/sportbike_dyno_charts/photo_87.html
Now you may find a first gen busa putting out 170 stock to the rear in one place...maybe even tested next to an 08 busa putting out 172. Does that mean the first gens are all putting out 170 because one does? Or maybe because the huge majority of tests showing it putting out 155-162 means that that one instance of 170 is suspicious for whatever reasons? Like I said before I'm all for loving the bike you own, but I also like to see realism. I have no prob with my bike being King Richard, or just one of several extremely fast bikes.....I ride for the joy of riding...not an ego boost. I know everybodies diff..but I have as much right to state my opinion on truth as somebody else has to bash any bike they want. I know this is a busa site..but as you've noticed more than a few busa riders have questioned your test. Some like the warm fuzzy feeling of a questionable result...some just like honesty. Either way not knocking you, but as both 08's start getting tested by more and more mags, the general public, shops ect, I'll bet money that they'll be within 3-5 hp of each other. And I'll refer back to this post when that time comes  

 

[Professor]

You also have to take in account what dyno the bike in the sport rider link was ran on. Did they use STD correction (which will read higher) or SAE correction like this dyno did. I'm not sure why, but 250i Dynojet dynos read consistently lower than other Dynojet dynos. I sent an email to DJ asking the same question some time ago and did not get a reply.

I have a two different dyno runs on my bike with no other changes. My bike is stock with a pipe and pcIIIusb 168.8hp SAE and 152.2 hp SAE (on a 250i). Roughly 10%. So which is right? By my mph at the track with the same tune, it should be closer to the 152 number.

I do think running both bikes on the same dyno is a more accurate comparison. But I do think the 14 ran seems a bit low. It would be interesting to see number from another 08 14 ran on that same dyno.

I also like that both of these bike came from off the dealer showroom floor instead of one sent for a magazine test by the manufacturer or a factory sponsored bike.

 

[rotts4u]

Also just to clarify on The Big Red One and his concerns on my involvement in the 08 article, that connection was with the magazine, not with Suzuki. I write for many of the magazines on a regular basis and the reason I was asked to write the Busa motor story was because I was one of a very few people that got to see inside the 08 hayabusa engine months ago. As you likely know Velocity Racing had one through the summer to build a turbo 2008 bike for the Suzuki launch. The owner of Velocity is a good friend and business contact so he invited me in with a camera and a scale to photo and weight everything I wanted from the engine.

I have no bias to or against Suzuki. Suzuki does not send me special bikes or even give me discounts on the bikes I have or have ever had. I get them right off the dealer floor like all of you do. Mine was bought from Whites Cycle and Marine in Chattanooga, TN so hopefully this will clear up any thoughts that I am a Suzuki planted agent here to bias your opinion.

I am a journalist pure and simple when it comes to the articles and project bikes I do and I cant ever put that in jeopardy or else I would not be able to work in this industry. Plus I happen to do a fair amount of land speed racing and have set or currently hold a number of land speed records on various bikes. I think all total I have set maybe 25 records and I am #50 member of the ECTA 200mph club. (http://www.ecta-lsr.com/?page_id=9)Actually that was done on a Kawasaki ZX-12. And at one time I also held the highest production 1000cc land speed record in the world (this included Maxton/ECTA,Bonneville and El Mirage) and that too was on a Kawasaki a 2005 ZX-10 to be exact 186.497mph on a ZX-10 that had 50 miles on it at the time also from the dealer showroom floor.


Sorry to rant on about off topic stuff but to me it is important that everyone understand who I am and what I do because it gets to the heart of the topic at hand.

So yes the 14 numbers seem low to me too but unless this bike is a lemon I dont know what else to do until we see another side by side test. If someone else comes on and posts a 14 dyno chart at 170 that proves nothing unless they also tested an 08 busa at the same time. As Professor points out each dyno reads different and that is why we tested these side by side on the same day etc.

In all fairness the Busa numbers are lower than some others too. I have heard other dynos showing more like 172 (motorcyclist) all the way up to 178hp in some cases. Those are likely STD numbers and our STD numbers on the busa were more like 173-174 also.

So for now that is all I have until we either get another 14 on the same dyno or until someone else that is unbiased does a side by side comparison. I would assume Brock will be posting his numbers pretty soon so that should help clear the air.

 

[PacerX]

You also have to take in account what dyno the bike in the sport rider link was ran on. Did they use STD correction (which will read higher) or SAE correction like this dyno did. I'm not sure why, but 250i Dynojet dynos read consistently lower than other Dynojet dynos. I sent an email to DJ asking the same question some time ago and did not get a reply.

I have a two different dyno runs on my bike with no other changes. My bike is stock with a pipe and pcIIIusb 168.8hp SAE  and  152.2 hp SAE (on a 250i).   Roughly 10%.  So which is right? By my mph at the track with the same tune, it should be closer to the 152 number.

I do think running both bikes on the same dyno is a more accurate comparison. But I do think the 14 ran seems a bit low. It would be interesting to see number from another 08 14 ran on that same dyno.  

I also like that both of these bike came from off the dealer showroom floor instead of one sent for a magazine test by the manufacturer or a factory sponsored bike.

Yep.

What he said.

Dyno to dyno, things vary.

A to B'd on the same dyno? That's about the cleanest way to go about doing it, and it seems the ZX-14 in question got ass-packed.

 

[Dart451]

Thanks for update!

 

[GPW]

I am sorry all of you feel like there was some agenda here. If anything I would have thought the dyno operator would have a bias TOWARD the ZX-14 not against it. The ZX-14 was owned by the dyno owner and the Busa was mine.
I watched him make the runs back to back and no funny business was done. I have no axe to grind either way and there are usually just as many Kawasaki's in my garage as there are Suzuki's. I have owned a ZX-10 nitrous bike a turbo ZX-12 and currently I have a 07 ZX-6 so I am not exactly a Suzuki diehard either.

We just reported what happened on two stock bikes and both were 2008 models not a 2007 ZX-14 as claimed earlier. Again I am sorry everyone feels scammed but we will wait and see what other dynos report to see if this is consistent or not. As for the numbers being low overall, this dyno is known to be very conservative overall when compared to others so it doesnt surprise me that the busa only pulled 170 here. Motorcyclist got 172 on their busa and of course it had more miles than our 290ish bike. But the point is these were ran back to back and are good for comparing one bike to the other. Not comparing this dyno number to somebody else's dyno numbers.

Don,

I have a brand new Dynojet 250I in a climate controlled dyno room. Conditions remain consistant all day long with an air exchange rate of 17 to 1 per minute. The tested bike was warmed to 180 degrees before each pull. I know there are very few dyno set-ups like this in the country we copied what Dynojet had at their facility and some. Here is what a totally stock 2007 ZX-14 pulled on our dyno base and then mapped to a 13 to 1 AFR.I have no data on the 2008 Busa but should have one in here next week.

 

[Tybalt71]

lets ee those bikes bone stock out of the crate run heads up side by side, equal rider and switch bikes, no slamming, no USB, no afertmarket exhaust, tie -downs andjust let them rock! great Ride up ROTTS, txs for your time and energy

 

[GPW]

Don,

one last question. I read where you stated that the ZX-14 could not be tuned due to no PCIII. I was just wondering what happened to cause the AFR (air fuel ratio) on the 14 to change drastically. It appears it went pig rich. Just tuning questions. I know you to be an honest and credible guy just looking at the data presented.

greg

 

[NOTORIOUS]

You also have to take in account what dyno the bike in the sport rider link was ran on. Did they use STD correction (which will read higher) or SAE correction like this dyno did. I'm not sure why, but 250i Dynojet dynos read consistently lower than other Dynojet dynos. I sent an email to DJ asking the same question some time ago and did not get a reply.

I have a two different dyno runs on my bike with no other changes. My bike is stock with a pipe and pcIIIusb 168.8hp SAE  and  152.2 hp SAE (on a 250i).   Roughly 10%.  So which is right? By my mph at the track with the same tune, it should be closer to the 152 number.

I do think running both bikes on the same dyno is a more accurate comparison. But I do think the 14 ran seems a bit low. It would be interesting to see number from another 08 14 ran on that same dyno.  

I also like that both of these bike came from off the dealer showroom floor instead of one sent for a magazine test by the manufacturer or a factory sponsored bike.

Yep.

What he said.

Dyno to dyno, things vary.

A to B'd on the same dyno?  That's about the cleanest way to go about doing it, and it seems the ZX-14 in question got ass-packed.

that is exactly true...

same dyno, 2 bikes... that clean...

even if one read 200hp and the other read 205hp... still using the same measuring equipment.

 

[1300hemibusa]

AM -->

1225106[/ATTACH] AM]

I am sorry all of you feel like there was some agenda here. If anything I would have thought the dyno operator would have a bias TOWARD the ZX-14 not against it. The ZX-14 was owned by the dyno owner and the Busa was mine.
I watched him make the runs back to back and no funny business was done. I have no axe to grind either way and there are usually just as many Kawasaki's in my garage as there are Suzuki's. I have owned a ZX-10 nitrous bike a turbo ZX-12 and currently I have a 07 ZX-6 so I am not exactly a Suzuki diehard either.

We just reported what happened on two stock bikes and both were 2008 models not a 2007 ZX-14 as claimed earlier. Again I am sorry everyone feels scammed but we will wait and see what other dynos report to see if this is consistent or not. As for the numbers being low overall, this dyno is known to be very conservative overall when compared to others so it doesnt surprise me that the busa only pulled 170 here. Motorcyclist got 172 on their busa and of course it had more miles than our 290ish bike. But the point is these were ran back to back and are good for comparing one bike to the other. Not comparing this dyno number to somebody else's dyno numbers.

Don,

I have a brand new Dynojet 250I in a climate controlled dyno room. Conditions remain consistant all day long with an air exchange rate of 17 to 1 per minute. The tested bike was warmed to 180 degrees before each pull. I know there are very few dyno set-ups like this in the country we copied what Dynojet had at their facility and some. Here is what a totally stock 2007 ZX-14 pulled on our dyno base and then mapped to a 13 to 1 AFR.I have no data on the 2008 Busa but should have one in here next week.

Your dyno numbers seem to be right on par ...I just got this from Rob Muzzy  and it backs up the data posted ..

Rob Muzzy

We have just finished exhaust pipe testing on the 08. First let me say that for some reason the stock bike is very rich from the factory. The bike we tested was down about 2 HP over the 06 and 07 bikes. We then installed a Power Commander and mapped. The results netted a 7 HP gain over the previous years. We then began pipe testing, the MUZZY M10 produced 189HP, and the new M14 produced 194HP. We then removed the Flies and put VP M11 in the fuel tank. Results where a very impressive 200.6 HP. The bike had 485 miles on the odometer. We have not tested the 08 Busa and can not make any comparisons.

 

[Haya01B]

With all that said the new 14 is not packing the stock power that the previous ones have?

 

[rotts4u]

In the second posting Greg we were able to get the PC to work after all. He said there was some trick for grounding the PC to the engine vs the battery and after that  it was fine. So the say two results came from a Power Commander mapped bike. This dyno is outdoors actually in a trailer and the weather here is quite nice lately so air exchange is not a problem as the whole side and rear of the trailer opens up and the temps outside were nice both days, so that should not be an issue either.

So the first graph where the 14 went 10.5-1 was 100% stock. Then we added the pc on day two and it got better HP due to getting airfuel back closer to 13-1 approx

 

[GPW]

In the second posting Greg we were able to get the PC to work after all. He said there was some trick for grounding the PC to the engine vs the battery and after that  it was fine. So the say two results came from a Power Commander mapped bike. This dyno is outdoors actually in a trailer and the weather here is quite nice lately so air exchange is not a problem as the whole side and rear of the trailer opens up and the temps outside were nice both days, so that should not be an issue either.

So the first graph where the 14 went 10.5-1 was 100% stock. Then we added the pc on day two and it got better HP due to getting airfuel back closer to 13-1 approx

Then we should wait for results that show a properly mapped bike, the AFR's on both bikes are all over the place..Here is a dyno sheet of a properly mapped 2007 ZX-14 with:

87 Pump fuel
secondary's removed
Pipercross Race Filter
Full Muzzy 4 into 1 Exhaust

I think both of the 2008 bikes would show better results with proper mapping. Looking forward to the before and after results on custom maps this winter. We do use not use Dynojet's tuning link we map by hand and eye and you can see the results in our AFR vs. the dyno sheets listed, our AFR line is on the 13 to 1 scale across the board. All good info, this winter and mods for both bikes should be interesting.


click here.......

 

[Rockin C Racing]

AM -->

1225286[/ATTACH] AM]

I am sorry all of you feel like there was some agenda here. If anything I would have thought the dyno operator would have a bias TOWARD the ZX-14 not against it. The ZX-14 was owned by the dyno owner and the Busa was mine.
I watched him make the runs back to back and no funny business was done. I have no axe to grind either way and there are usually just as many Kawasaki's in my garage as there are Suzuki's. I have owned a ZX-10 nitrous bike a turbo ZX-12 and currently I have a 07 ZX-6 so I am not exactly a Suzuki diehard either.

We just reported what happened on two stock bikes and both were 2008 models not a 2007 ZX-14 as claimed earlier. Again I am sorry everyone feels scammed but we will wait and see what other dynos report to see if this is consistent or not. As for the numbers being low overall, this dyno is known to be very conservative overall when compared to others so it doesnt surprise me that the busa only pulled 170 here. Motorcyclist got 172 on their busa and of course it had more miles than our 290ish bike. But the point is these were ran back to back and are good for comparing one bike to the other. Not comparing this dyno number to somebody else's dyno numbers.

Don,

I have a brand new Dynojet 250I in a climate controlled dyno room. Conditions remain consistant all day long with an air exchange rate of 17 to 1 per minute. The tested bike was warmed to 180 degrees before each pull. I know there are very few dyno set-ups like this in the country we copied what Dynojet had at their facility and some. Here is what a totally stock 2007 ZX-14 pulled on our dyno base and then mapped to a 13 to 1 AFR.I have no data on the 2008 Busa but should have one in here next week.

Your dyno numbers seem to be right on par ...I just got this from Rob Muzzy  and it backs up the data posted ..

Rob Muzzy

We have just finished exhaust pipe testing on the 08. First let me say that for some reason the stock bike is very rich from the factory. The bike we tested was down about 2 HP over the 06 and 07 bikes. We then installed a Power Commander and mapped. The results netted a 7 HP gain over the previous years. We then began pipe testing, the MUZZY M10 produced 189HP, and the new M14 produced 194HP. We then removed the Flies and put VP M11 in the fuel tank. Results where a very impressive 200.6 HP. The bike had 485 miles on the odometer. We have not tested the 08 Busa and can not make any comparisons.

Just for information. Muzzy's will have an 08 busa to work with in the first to middle part of December. I have already been in contact with them, and they are going to be using my bike for there R&D. I pick the bike up this weekend and then will get the break in done before it goes to them.

 

[The Big Red One]

Also just to clarify on The Big Red One and his concerns on my involvement in the 08 article, that connection was with the magazine, not with Suzuki. I write for many of the magazines on a regular basis and the reason I was asked to write the Busa motor story was because I was one of a very few people that got to see inside the 08 hayabusa engine months ago. As you likely know Velocity Racing had one through the summer to build a turbo 2008 bike for the Suzuki launch. The owner of Velocity is a good friend and business contact so he invited me in with a camera and a scale to photo and weight everything I wanted from the engine.

I have no bias to or against Suzuki. Suzuki does not send me special bikes or even give me discounts on the bikes I have or have ever had. I get them right off the dealer floor like all of you do. Mine was bought from Whites Cycle and Marine in Chattanooga, TN so hopefully this will clear up any thoughts that I am a Suzuki planted agent here to bias your opinion.

I am a journalist pure and simple when it comes to the articles and project bikes I do and I cant ever put that in jeopardy or else I would not be able to work in this industry. Plus I happen to do a fair amount of land speed racing and have set or currently hold a number of land speed records on various bikes. I think all total I have set maybe 25 records and I am #50 member of the ECTA 200mph club. (http://www.ecta-lsr.com/?page_id=9)Actually that was done on a Kawasaki ZX-12. And at one time I also held the highest production 1000cc land speed record in the world (this included Maxton/ECTA,Bonneville and El Mirage) and that too was on a Kawasaki a 2005 ZX-10 to be exact 186.497mph on a ZX-10 that had 50 miles on it at the time also from the dealer showroom floor.


Sorry to rant on about off topic stuff but to me it is important that everyone understand who I am and what I do because it gets to the heart of the topic at hand.

So yes the 14 numbers seem low to me too but unless this bike is a lemon I dont know what else to do until we see another side by side test. If someone else comes on and posts a 14 dyno chart at 170 that proves nothing unless they also tested an 08 busa at the same time. As Professor points out each dyno reads different and that is why we tested these side by side on the same day etc.

In all fairness the Busa numbers are lower than some others too. I have heard other dynos showing more like 172 (motorcyclist) all the way up to 178hp in some cases. Those are likely STD numbers and our STD numbers on the busa were more like 173-174 also.

So for now that is all I have until we either get another 14 on the same dyno or until someone else that is unbiased does a side by side comparison. I would assume Brock will be posting his numbers pretty soon so that should help clear the air.

Thanks Don for giving us some info on your background....you sound very well versed in the bike world

We get so much smack talking on the net that sometimes honest info can fall through the cracks, and get treated like more of the same old (smack) info. Thanks for your time and effort in the testing you did. You've handled yourself well through the flack you took (from me mostly

) and I admire you for that

I don't understand why the readings were so off...but as time goes by that will be cleared up I think. Performance wise...from bike nights I've been to..to friends/dragstrip visits ect both bikes are very close in performance. So the dyno diffs you got don't seem to be making any real diff in real world riding. I know the 06-7 14 has about a 12-13 hp advantage over my 04 busa....and believe me when I run one its very apparent

Anyway good job on trying to give us some clean info

Stick around..We need all the mature classy members we can get

 

[Bruiserman]

Been reading the posts for this Dyno shootout on this and the zx14 forum and it seems like everyone is in agreement. Something just isn't right. I had my 05 Busa dyno'd and it ran 155.6 hp in stock form. I have an 06 ZX14 now and would be suprized if it was only 4hp stronger. The 08 14 is supposed to be even a bit more powerful than the 06 and 07 14's. So those dyno numbers on the 08 14 just seem way too low. I'm sure that the two bikes are within 5hp of each other on any given day on any given dyno. Seems everyone knows that these bikes are pretty equal in most categories. I love them both and hope a good comparison can be done just because it is fun reading. But thats all it is good for.
Later

 

[rtvegas]

Question for GPW..

Why would the 08 ZX14 be dyno'd with 87 octane? I read another post from Ricky Gadson stating he did the same with his 08 as well. From what I've heard the newer models (14 and Busa) have higher compression and would require a minimum of 91 octane.