Hey bullet and the rest of ya weapons geeks...

[JINKSTER]

I have an M4 style Bushmaster and its a good weapon -  actually its the wife's gun.
Its been dependable and is cheap to shoot and carry. I have used it on the job to keep evil spirits away and it works ok for that too.

The Springfield variant you have posted is a good idea, they are pricey but are a FAR better, shot for shot weapon than any black rifle - anything a .223 will do a .308 will do better!

wrong.

Why "Wrong" Jink?  I was kinda thinking that I might look into an Armalite AR10 in .308.   So I would be interested in hearing why you believe 5.56 is superior to 7.62X51/.308.  Other than the ability to carry more 5.56 for a given weight, and 5.56 costing less, I am not aware of any ballistic or functional benefit to 5.56 VS 7.62X51.

The SEALS live and die by the M1A1 and it's 7.62 round.  Out to 1000 yards or so it's functional, and it hits much harder than 5.56 in close.  There are also elements at SOCOM that swear by 7.62 and the M1A1s ability to reach out and touch someone/something.

So I am curious.  The 5.56 was developed for a close range environment, I.E. Jungle, Out to about 300 yrds or so, it's a compromise between Firepower and Stopping power, as are the other assault rifle calibers.

Or Something like that....  I read something somewhere....

hey rev...first off...the mans words were...

"anything a .223 will do a .308 will do better"

and that's what's "wrong"...as it's simply not true.

and not to brag but just to quantify my words my background includes Marine Corps Rifle Expert (High Shooter Of My Platoon)...offered Sniper and then P.M.I. coming out of boot..I refused both...also?..I've competed in several hundred organized tactical competitions..with about a hundred of those tactical challenge events being "3 Gun Competitions" (including pistol, rifle and shotgun)...all were timed events with shots fired from several stations and positions with "on-the-run reloading"...and it was during these events I saw the first hand weaknesses and strengths of many popular combat rifle variants...and just about all were customized "Race Guns".

The .308/M1A: was drastically out of it's element...and at tactical distances of less than 100 yards it's power becomes it's weakness...with full power loads and no recoil buffering system leaving the operator posting shot-too-shot recovery times double that of the much faster handling AR variants.

Other tactical downsides include: Low 20 rd mag capacity and a very slow and clumsy "rock-it-out/rock-it-in" mag changing system..also?...I can pack 600rds of .223 as easily as just 200rds of .308 as not only are the .308 rounds 3x's the cost but also 3x's the "WEIGHT".

That said?..I love the old M-14 full battle rifles and once owned a Springfield N.M. M1A with a Gen.II scope...and at ranges of 200-500 yards?..it was so accurate it was boring. LOL!..but again..that's a full sized service rifle...and that's where the .308 shines...as a mid-range sniper rifle...however..these bastardized 16"er socoms are somewhat of a joke to me...as they've taken the mighty 7.62 and the short 16" barrels have neutered it down to 7.62X39 velocities and power factors..and for what?..just to romance the old ergonomically incorrect M-14?..that's just foolishness imho.

The AK Variants: Used them and loved them as well but...while reliable as the newspaper boy?...even the best examples suffer lackluster accuracy and sport even worse ergo's than the M1A as your hand hasta leave the grip position just to activate the safety and requires "two-handed-mag-changes"...which sux when you're in a timed and stressful situation as it rarely goes smoothly.

The AR: is everything a mid-sized battle rifle should be...light...fast handling annnd.."ergo correct" to the extreme...as your grip hand never has to leave position to either operate the safety oorrrrrr...execute a speedy mag change...and while it doesn't sport the knockdown power of the .308?...it more than makes up for it by way of accuracy and speed....and the .223 round has come a long ways in the past decade..including winchesters "Q" loads which are "Frangible FMJ's"..they don't zip in and zip out...or "tumble"...they simple hit...penetrate...and then "grenade"....dumping the ful load of energy into it's hamburgered victim...no lack of effect there.

I like'em all...but I love the AR's for their fast handling speed, accuracy, versatlity, ammo cost, capacity and all associated lightweight gear and ammo.

Here's a Bushy Flat-Top BAR-10 that I put together about 2 years back...and then sold about a year ago..it was my "SNIPETAC" project rifle...it wore a 4-16X Nikon Mil-Dot Tactical set in I.O.R. Valdada H.D. Ringsets with a Harris Bi-pod modified to "lockpivot"...

The idea?...as the name "SnipeTac" infers?...it was supposed to be a cross between a mid-range snipe and tacical rifle...and it failed...as it did both okay but neither one well...ego correct but...still heavy...still slow...and at engagments of less than 200yds?...I'd be suxing hind #####...and toting low count, high cost and weight...rounds.

so does the .308 do everything better?...not in this lifetime.

L8R, Bill.

 

[Armalite]

Get AR-10.
AR platform with .308/7.62x51 power!

 

[JINKSTER]

Get AR-10.
AR platform with .308/7.62x51 power!

again it will depend on what rev is looking for...if he wants to blow the pi$$ out of things over 300 yards away and pay 3x's the ammo cost to do it?..then yeah....308's the way to go..but again...the 3 arms he pictured indicates to me that he's looking for something fast handling and compact...ecomonical to shoot never hurts either...and usually equals practice, practice, practice....and personally?..I don't mind shelling out $300-$400 (and as low as just a tad over $200) for a case of 1,000rds of .223...but?...308 runs close to a buck a round for the good stuff...Federal Gold Medal Match...Winchester Supreme...and the surplus indian 7.62 crap runs $400 and ammo box full..which ain't a 1,000rds...something like 640...battlepacs...and is absolute garbage I wouldn't fire out of any rifle i liked let alone love.

also..i can't express enough about how badly a 16" barrel cuts down the .308s power...drastically...18"s should be the bare min for anything .308...anything less is a waste of power and expensive ammo.

But?...it's revs decision to make...I'm just interjecting thoughts and experience as he requested...in hopes he does the right thing to get the most bang for his buck.

L8R, Bill.

 

[Revlis]

Get AR-10.
AR platform with .308/7.62x51 power!

again it will depend on what rev is looking for...if he wants to blow the pi$$ out of things over 300 yards away and pay 3x's the ammo cost to do it?..then yeah....308's the way to go..but again...the 3 arms he pictured indicates to me that he's looking for something fast handling and compact...ecomonical to shoot never hurts either...and usually equals practice, practice, practice....and personally?..I don't mind shelling out $300-$400 (and as low as just a tad over $200) for a case of 1,000rds of .223...but?...308 runs close to a buck a round for the good stuff...Federal Gold Medal Match...Winchester Supreme...and the surplus indian 7.62 crap runs $400 and ammo box full..which ain't a 1,000rds...something like 640...battlepacs...and is absolute garbage I wouldn't fire out of any rifle i liked let alone love.

also..i can't express enough about how badly a 16" barrel cuts down the .308s power...drastically...18"s should be the bare min for anything .308...anything less is a waste of power and expensive ammo.

But?...it's revs decision to make...I'm just interjecting thoughts and experience as he requested...in hopes he does the right thing to get the most bang for his buck.

L8R, Bill.

"In hopes that he does the right thing" ROTFL That's awesome and I'm not being sarcastic... I have truly found a believer and that's OK.

I just like the sentiment.

The Good news I guess is that I am leaning towards the M4. For several reasons.

1. Affordability, both ownership and ammo.
2. Chevy 350 like Parts and performance mods.
3. It's America's Rifle. (Might Get a Colt Just Because of this)
4. Familiarity
5. Accuracy within my range of ability.
6. Lightweight
7. Hell, I've been wanting an AR15 of my own for years and just never got around to it.

I'll Post more in a little bit, but I do find it interesting that NOBODY thought the FN F2000 would be worth the $$$$....

Jink, I agree with a lot of what you said, but the 16" SOCOM was developed in conjunction with SOCOM Operators and while the lack of 4" is significant it's still highly effective and more capable of stopping a target NOW than the 5.56. At Least that what I've been reading and hearing... FWIW

 

[BoiseBusa]

Oh and Welcome to the Board...

Thanks!

How far North of Seattle are you?  I used to live in Bellingham...

I have a Bushmaster M3, HK P2000, Glocks 17, 19, 26, and 34.

I was looking at getting the Springfield M1A Scout Squad, but that's one HEAVY gun.  

-Nick

 

[hydrabusa]

I understand, you like .223 but try AK47, its fun to shoot...if you looking similar power as .223 get the AK74...its has some serious power in there...and if you prefer, .308 theres 7.62x54mm for it...

but, if you asking choice out of those 3 up there? I'll pick number 1, out of it...you can change alot with it...you know your choice already...

 

[Revlis]

Oh and Welcome to the Board...

Thanks!

How far North of Seattle are you? I used to live in Bellingham...

I have a Bushmaster M3, HK P2000, Glocks 17, 19, 26, and 34.

I was looking at getting the Springfield M1A Scout Squad, but that's one HEAVY gun.

-Nick

I'm Basically living at the Alderwood Mall...

I am that Close. I am just West a couple minutes from the North Intersection of I-5 and 405.

Love it up here and I'm prolly not going to go home (Colorado). Never thought I would find anyplace I like more than Colorado, but here I am...

The Springfields are heavy, even the 16 SOCOM is pretty beefy. but it's still one of my favorites, especially in open terrain it really comes into it's element from what I have heard. But yeah it's beefy.

The FN F2000 though is a sweet rifle, 17.5" barrel, front ejection, and a perfect feel and balance all in a package about 4" shorter than an M4 collapsed... I dunno I suppose it's like a Buying a Porsche where the AR line of rifles is like buying a Mustang GT.

 

[Revlis]

I understand, you like .223 but try AK47, its fun to shoot...if you looking similar power as .223 get the AK74...its has some serious power in there...and if you prefer, .308 theres 7.62x54mm for it...

but, if you asking choice out of those 3 up there? I'll pick number 1, out of it...you can change alot with it...you know your choice already...

I have a good amount of experiance with the AK's. Prolly about 5k rounds or so anyway. Not a ton of Experiance but enough to appreciate it's strengths. I am just looking for something a bit more accurate. I am not going to be competing by any means but I like the feel and function of the ARs much better than the AKs. The Ak never really did it for me, reliable and tough yeah but roughly finished ya know?

But the AK Does have it's price bonus...

I'll prolly pick up an FN FAL, or maybe a Springfield M1A1 down the road for a full caliber, heavy hitter... Hell prolly an HK91...

 

[motorkar]

What about SIG556, I am not sure if it is here already, but you said you are a patient man.

www.sigarms.com

 

[Revlis]

What about SIG556, I am not sure if it is here already, but you said you are a patient man.

www.sigarms.com

Wow...

I am a huge fan of SIG, but I think I would skip this one for the same reason I'll pass on the F2000. Three is just such an abundance of AR style accessories and parts that it's hard to look away from it. More bang for the Buck ya know?

 

[Relsek]

What's this for, keeping an eye on the fridge?

 

[Aughtsix]

If I may, two other points consider:

Ergonomics

To me the AR15 variants just don't feel 'right'.  I can get them settled in just fine, but the snap up just isn't 'there' - especially bad with any collapsible stock I've ever worked with.  I find myself craning my neck and ending up with an awkward cheek weld.  Again, they'll get the job done, but they're not 'natural' in my opinion.  Oddly enough, their bigger brothers don't suffer this problem.

The M1a(1) is almost perfect ergonomically - again, at least for me.  They come up naturally and you find yourself looking through arguably the best iron sights of any MBR, especially their National Match sights.

Which brings me to point number two...

Sights

The AR15 variants suffer in this area, in my opinion.  Not only from a shorter sight radius, but in position/relation to the stock  -and-  in a sight/bore relationship (quite a bit higher over bore).

Yes, you can scope them, but that adds cost - a quality scope (S&B or USO) will double the cost of the package - and a sighting system is not an area in which you want to 'cheap out'.  I've seen too many guys fly Maggie's Drawers with a top-end rifle and a junk scope.

Again, in contrast, the M1a(1) comes with, well I'll just say it, the best damn open sights you'll find this side of a Palma rig.

In my estimation that carries double weight on the 'pro' side of the decision, especially for 'casual' use.


Now Jinksey does have a point - recoil.  A 7.62 does rock a bit more than a 5.56.  But the recoil of a 10lb 7.62 gas gun is anything but harsh or jarring.

Then again I find it more than a bit candy-assed to be in any rifle competition on a one-way range at <100 yards.  Hell, use a sidearm - or a slingshot - or just throw apples. Just my opinion...

Lastly, a 'low' 20rd mag capacity?  The most frightening man on the battlefield has a round capacity of five.  Twenty is plenty.

Two cents from my side of the fence...  

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[Aughtsix]

I'll prolly pick up an FN FAL, or maybe a Springfield M1A1 down the road for a full caliber, heavy hitter...  Hell prolly an HK91...

Yeah, nothing says you can't have a 5.56 and a 7.62...

And before I forget, surplus 7.62 (when available) is actually pretty reasonable - not much more than 5.56.

 

[JINKSTER]

If I may, two other points consider:

Ergonomics

To me the AR15 variants just don't feel 'right'.  I can get them settled in just fine, but the snap up just isn't 'there' - especially bad with any collapsible stock I've ever worked with.  I find myself craning my neck and ending up with an awkward cheek weld.  Again, they'll get the job done, but they're not 'natural' in my opinion.  Oddly enough, their bigger brothers don't suffer this problem.

The M1a(1) is almost perfect ergonomically - again, at least for me.  They come up naturally and you find yourself looking through arguably the best iron sights of any MBR, especially their National Match sights.

Which brings me to point number two...

Sights

The AR15 variants suffer in this area, in my opinion.  Not only from a shorter sight radius, but in position/relation to the stock  -and-  in a sight/bore relationship (quite a bit higher over bore).

Yes, you can scope them, but that adds cost - a quality scope (S&B or USO) will double the cost of the package - and a sighting system is not an area in which you want to 'cheap out'.  I've seen too many guys fly Maggie's Drawers with a top-end rifle and a junk scope.

Again, in contrast, the M1a(1) comes with, well I'll just say it, the best damn open sights you'll find this side of a Palma rig.

In my estimation that carries double weight on the 'pro' side of the decision, especially for 'casual' use.


Now Jinksey does have a point - recoil.  A 7.62 does rock a bit more than a 5.56.  But the recoil of a 10lb 7.62 gas gun is anything but harsh or jarring.

Then again I find it more than a bit candy-assed to be in any rifle competition on a one-way range at <100 yards.  Hell, use a sidearm - or a slingshot - or just throw apples.  Just my opinion...

Lastly, a 'low' 20rd mag capacity?  The most frightening man on the battlefield has a round capacity of five.  Twenty is plenty.

Two cents from my side of the fence...  

1. you must be old.

2. if i'm carrying that much lumber?..i damn sure ain't gonna rely on or limit the rifles potential to open sights.

3. the most frightening man on the battlefield might load 5 but he fires just 1 and runs.

4. socom and such entities have been historically noted for outside the box blunders...and the extra special special forces types will always follow chain of command wishes..brainwashed into believing that the special things they're issued are in fact...well?..."special"...which are often times pipe dreams...that age into nightmarish memories for those who manage to survive such.

but don't believe me...check with the pro's over at snipersparadise.com...or arfcom...ask them about .308 performance from 16" barrels...look at the chrono's...then look at the cost of .308 ammo.

L8R, Bill.

 

[UUBusa]

M4 with the M203 "Flare Launcher" just for looks..



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[UUBusa]

Oh yeah, Come get some!!

 

[Revlis]

You know one thing I really did notice was the Barrel heavy feel of the M4, I understand the usage of lead weights now. It's the Ergonomics of the F2000 that really appealed to me, it just came up naturally and fits perfectly.

I am not to concerned with recoil, I grew up putting buckshot and 3" slugs through the Model 1300 Defender, so I haven't really found ANYTHING that slows me down to much. I hesitated behind the Bolt action .50 but it was actually pretty mild. Now there is a rifle that would reach out and touch someone. ROBAR .50, 29" barrel, Machined Brass Handloads or AP, lot's of fun too shoot. Not to mention, firing the .50 at a "High Power" range really quiets things down for a minute.

Anyway, so recoil isn't really an issue is my point.

Maggie's Drawers... He he, I know the reference, and I understand but you gotta tell me why the red flag is Maggie's Drawers.

Anyway A6 ya Bastid you got me thinking again... The local shop has 2 National Match M1A1s plus the SOCOM... We'll see...

I'm still leaning towards an AR though, just for "Fun".

 

[Revlis]

4. socom and such entities have been historically noted for outside the box blunders...and the extra special special forces types will always follow chain of command wishes..brainwashed into believing that the special things they're issued are in fact...well?..."special"...which are often times pipe dreams...that age into nightmarish memories for those who manage to survive such.
[/QUOTE]

Dude, I smell envy? I smell resent? I dunno man; your statement makes no sense. What I saw at SOCOM was equipment and weapon requirements coming directly from the units. The operator drives the requirement, not the other way around. The procurement process has been streamlined and individuals have a lot more freedom selecting what works for them also.

So sounds to me like you're confused, resentful, or just misinformed... You sound like a pissed off Leg. If the SOCOM 16's ballistics are horrible then no one takes it into the field, simple as that. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. The 16 has a job it's designed for and it's within a few hundred yards...

Brainwashed and SOF... Man... I dunno Jink, all the sudden you quit making sense...

 

[Revlis]

M4 with the M203 "Flare Launcher" just for looks..

I love the look... That would get the rangemasters attention or at least scorn...

 

[Revlis]

Actually to hell with it... I'm going to get a Jumped up 10/22 Check this out...

Ironwood Designs is making some killer 10/22 mods...
AUG Style

Interesting stuff... heck Ammo's cheap.
Ironwood designs