FlatlandBusa
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:tiptoe:
Guns are bad...
Guns are an inanimate; they can be neither good or bad. The person possessing them is what determines the good or bad.
Calling gun guys (or gals?)
- Thread starter StrtRac3r
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Guns are an inanimate; they can be neither good or bad. The person possessing them is what determines the good or bad.
Saiid, I agree with both the posts above about how much a disadvantage not having a round in the chamber is. However, I dont' agree that it's as defenseless as not carrying at all. Like I said, he's got to be comfortable carrying at the level he's at, as long as he recognizes the downside/disadvantage. I'd rather someone carry at the level they are comfortable with, than to carry a level above it and be dangerous to themselves and other innocents....
SuedePflow
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I don't mean to offend, but if a person cannot trust themselves to keep their finger off the trigger during inappropriate times, then that person probably shouldn't be carrying a firearm. Afterall, it's rule #4 of the 4 basic rules. I'd like to think that conceal carriers have engrained the 4 basic rules into their psyche a long time prior to acquiring a CPL/CCW. So if a person is still struggling with any of those 4, then they may find it safter for themselves and everyone else to just not carry at all until the basics are mastered. Again, I mean no offense, but I find this to just be obvious stuff.
I've been carrying striker fired guns in condition one for about 8 years now, and I've never even almost had a ND. With a proper holster and proper training/practice, there are no safety issues with it.
Most of the time in defensive situation there is "Predatory" bahavior way before any engagement. And as I said if I don't have time to draw and rack I'm already wrestling or have been shot. Also - I stand a pretty good chance of defending myself or evading a situation. And your assuming I wouldn't put one in the pipe before getting out of the car in sketchy stituation or before I walk down the proverbial "dark alley" or out to the empty parking lot. Granted its a trade-off, but one I feel is very confident about.
Said every cop who accidently fired his service weapon
And countless other private citizens. "it was an accident" I swear. Humans make mistakes. Physical and mental.BTW - would you bet your life today I couldn't pull, rack and fire a weapon before you could attack me from seven yards or pistol whip your ass to the ground? Because on a lonely street if you look at all shady I'm creating distance when you enter my personal space. 7 or so yards and my hand is already finding my weapon.
BTW - this is the reason most police departments don't use glocks anymore - because they had a rash of accidental / negligent shootings using passive safety device striker weapons.
One other thing about your video... Besides its somewhat bizarre staging, I guarantee if the women wasn't in a staged situation with a predetermined task - pull and shoot your weapon - her first, natural and right reaction would be to flee. Fight or Flight. She would have naturally tried to create distance probably at the first sight of a strange guy walk'in up on her and she would likely be pulling her weapon at the same time. It was a "hair standing on the back of the neck" moment in real life. Since this is a hypothetical situation anyway - my guess is if she just made it to the driveway should would have had a car to put between her and her would be assailant and all the time in the world to shoot his ass and/or she could have played "All around the Mayberry Bush" with him all day long. Kinda of a silly staged exercise forgetting a big part of self defense doctrine. Creating distance and fleeing. I have thought about this scenario in real life - being followed into to your garage. That's why I have a broken axe handle right inside the garage. This is really true!
I respect everyone's opinion on my choice - but I remain unrepentant
It's not because I don't now about handling my carry weapon of choice, I choose to carry without one in the pipe because I understand very well the operation of the Glock 26 and the potential tradeoffs.
Kinda of a silly staged exercise forgetting a big part of self defense doctrine. Creating distance and fleeing. I have thought about this scenario in real life - being followed into to your garage. That's why I have a broken axe handle right inside the garage. This is really true!I respect everyone's opinion on my choice - but I remain unrepentant
It's not because I don't now about handling my carry weapon of choice, I choose to carry without one in the pipe because I understand very well the operation of the Glock 26 and the potential tradeoffs.
SuedePflow
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We are human, so accidents will always happen. But they are incredibly rare. And even still, there's a big difference between an accident and openly not trusting yourself to follow the basic rules.Said every cop who accidently fired his service weapon
I'm not offended. I was a soldier for 26 years and I've had a CCW since 1989....Yes, with good proper training, I'd agree. I'm PERSONALLY not afraid to carry condition one, but I AM concerned for my wife, so it's different for each person....still, better than going totally defenseless.
It's also why the Army chose a service weapon with a double-action first round and a drop hammer safety....the M9.....
Than get comfy with it or carry a slap jack or knife.
Yes I would. Anytime anywhere, I would gut you like a fish.
Trained officers can't even get their weapons out and you still think somehow you're going to magically sense danger coming? Cmon man get real. You're telling us that anyone who comes within 21ft of you and you're throttling your gun? Do you constantly walk around with your hand on it or just not go anywhere?
Wrong. More depts carry Glocks than you can count and I'd bet it is the most prevalent issued duty weapon in the USA.
One other thing about your video... Besides its somewhat bizarre staging, I guarantee if the women wasn't in a staged situation with a predetermined task - pull and shoot your weapon - her first, natural and right reaction would be to flee. Fight or Flight. She would have naturally tried to create distance probably at the first sight of a strange guy walk'in up on her and she would likely be pulling her weapon at the same time. It was a "hair standing on the back of the neck" moment in real life. Since this is a hypothetical situation anyway - my guess is if she just made it to the driveway should would have had a car to put between her and her would be assailant and all the time in the world to shoot his ass and/or she could have played "All around the Mayberry Bush" with him all day long.
I respect everyone's opinion on my choice - but I remain unrepentant
See above videos and rethink your decision.
Wrong again. There was a leetle thing called cost and Glock lost on that as well as due to the fact the Beretta out performed it in all aspects.
I can go on and on and on as there are hundreds of instructors well known in the shooting world who say same as above.
Meanwhile nobody can as I said find a single well known reputable real world experienced person who advocates empty chamber carry.
Which video do you consider the 2nd?
And what points do you think it backs you up on?
If the Dan Inosanto video doesn't change your mind nothing will.
Panic, adrenalin and all things will kick in and if you honestly think you're going to remember to rack the slide on your pistol in a life and death situation I politely say you're wrong.
Find me ONE case where an empty chamber carrier used that method to defend himself and came out alive.
Just ONE......
And what points do you think it backs you up on?
If the Dan Inosanto video doesn't change your mind nothing will.
Panic, adrenalin and all things will kick in and if you honestly think you're going to remember to rack the slide on your pistol in a life and death situation I politely say you're wrong.
Find me ONE case where an empty chamber carrier used that method to defend himself and came out alive.
Just ONE......
"Most"? Any sources to back that up? I think "Some" is the more correct word. New York PD is one major department which is why the two heavy triggers are called New York triggers. But I'd bet far less than half of all duty weapons are heavy versions. There also has been some controversy that the heavy trigger is causing deaths because of the loss off accuracy due to these triggers in officer involved shootings.
Just ONE?
Ok, let me try. I do not normally see in the "gun saves lives" articles where it mentions "charging the weapon", BUT, I do see plenty of instances where the mere PRESENTATION of a handgun was enough to cause the bad guy to disengage...while not exactly what you mean, I'd say pretty dang close as it had the same effect.
I'm NOT arguing that carrying in any condition less that condition one isn't the best possible way to CCW, I'd just like to point out that not everyone is not completely comfortable with it. We need to not run off people who are working towards condition one and instead focus on those who think we shouldn't have the right AT ALL to CWW....because THEY are the REAL ENEMY....
This little p shooter was present to myself last year. Granted its not the most powerful round or the smallest carry weapon. It has been my CCW ever since I got it. For whatever reason I feel more comfortable carrying a pistol with a true safety, though I did have to retrain my muscle memory a bit for its location. 20+1 rounds and under 2 pounds fully loaded in it's holster, it works for me. Had to actually save for this, so I'm pretty proud of it.
OK - I'm being dragged into defending my choice - which I will in painful detail. And yet it will probably fall on deaf ears and be responded to with yeah but the expert says... First - I never, ever made any recommendations about what condition one should carry a weapon. It's a personal choice - I simple said it's the way I choose to carry. And, I'm completely comfortable with that choice. Also - some of y'all are mixing apples and oranges with respect to defensive concealed carry, self-defense in general, offensive carry and police work. The latter of the two have nothing to do with my discussion. In addition if you were following the earlier discussion I clearly referenced the fact that I have kids around my house now and that I use to carry a standard loaded weapon for decades before that. Let's make this as clear as possible - the reason I don't carry with a cartridge in the barrel is not because I can't operate the weapon, but because it provides just one extra measure of safety if I "f" up and leave a weapon in the car, in my motorcycle jacket, on the washer machine etc... It coincidently has at least two other advantages 1) it can’t be used immediately against you in close arms situation like when a cops weapon is stolen in a scuffle and used against them and there is no, zero, zilch chance of a negligent discharge. I am hyper-sensitive to this now and I've still put down a weapon and forgot it for a moment. And trust me - a wave of fear has come over me the couple of times I've done this in the past. Get it? This is the reason I don’t carry as often anymore as well. The logistics of un-securing the weapon, donning the pistol, and then re-securing the weapon is a big headache just to run and pick up the kids at baseball. Any chance of me leaving a weapon unsecured scares me.
Israeli method or condition 3
“if you honestly think you're going to remember to rack the slide on your pistol in a life and death situation I politely say you're wrong”
Why would remembering to rack a slide be any harder than flipping the safety on the cocked and locked 1911 we’re all so found of… That’s how I practice, un-holster, rack and shoot. If I practice with my para-ordinance in condition 1 – I un-holster, flick the safety off and shoot. You might not rack the slide because you carry loaded. Supports my first point - if I’m at one foot and someone disarms me I’ve got a chance.
Also, here’s my option C3 (The Israeli methodology) The Thinking Gunfighter: THE MYTHS OF THE ISRAELI METHOD OF CARRY, or why carrying chamber empty isn?t so bad. Nobody does it?!?
So with respect to the videos…
First I’m not a cop and wouldn’t be “offensively” approaching some guy on the street. It doesn’t apply to my defensive concealed carry world. This is what is referred to as a straw man argument. However, the second part of the video does put in perspective exactly what I’m saying. One foot you’re stabbed. Loaded or unloaded you won’t have time to un-holster and present a weapon. Like I said, I’m in a wrestling match for life up to about 15 feet. 21 feet the criminal is on the ground. Still want to bet your life I couldn’t pull, rack and shoot? So… from a total defensive concealed carry world and self-defense perspective – not a police perspective – I’m not going to stand and fight with someone if I don’t have to. I’m going to naturally create distance from the person but, from a self-defense perspective… I’m going to the best of my ability avoid dangerous areas and people.
Rule 1 – Before any gun stuff – if you don’t feel safe, trust that instinct and leave, roll the window up, lock the doors, go back to the store find an escort, walk in groups, yell fire instead of help and/or prepare to defend yourself. Rack one in the pipe!
“Find me ONE case where an empty chamber carrier used that method to defend himself and came out alive.”
First – Every encounter where a victim just shows a gun and de-escalates the situation is the functional equivalent. Second, probably many of home defenses start with an empty chamber or a locked gun. And, how many new organizations report on what condition a weapon was in before it was fired? I can turn that question around and ask you to find me articles that state when the weapon was loaded before the incident. This is know as a gratutitis question. I don't accept that any pistols were loaded before the incident - find me one case where the article states at what point the gun was loaded. Or in other words - find me a case where an empty chamber gun carrier was killed.
I’ll continue later – if necessary…
Israeli method or condition 3
“if you honestly think you're going to remember to rack the slide on your pistol in a life and death situation I politely say you're wrong”
Why would remembering to rack a slide be any harder than flipping the safety on the cocked and locked 1911 we’re all so found of… That’s how I practice, un-holster, rack and shoot. If I practice with my para-ordinance in condition 1 – I un-holster, flick the safety off and shoot. You might not rack the slide because you carry loaded. Supports my first point - if I’m at one foot and someone disarms me I’ve got a chance.
Also, here’s my option C3 (The Israeli methodology) The Thinking Gunfighter: THE MYTHS OF THE ISRAELI METHOD OF CARRY, or why carrying chamber empty isn?t so bad. Nobody does it?!?
So with respect to the videos…
First I’m not a cop and wouldn’t be “offensively” approaching some guy on the street. It doesn’t apply to my defensive concealed carry world. This is what is referred to as a straw man argument. However, the second part of the video does put in perspective exactly what I’m saying. One foot you’re stabbed. Loaded or unloaded you won’t have time to un-holster and present a weapon. Like I said, I’m in a wrestling match for life up to about 15 feet. 21 feet the criminal is on the ground. Still want to bet your life I couldn’t pull, rack and shoot? So… from a total defensive concealed carry world and self-defense perspective – not a police perspective – I’m not going to stand and fight with someone if I don’t have to. I’m going to naturally create distance from the person but, from a self-defense perspective… I’m going to the best of my ability avoid dangerous areas and people.
Rule 1 – Before any gun stuff – if you don’t feel safe, trust that instinct and leave, roll the window up, lock the doors, go back to the store find an escort, walk in groups, yell fire instead of help and/or prepare to defend yourself. Rack one in the pipe!
“Find me ONE case where an empty chamber carrier used that method to defend himself and came out alive.”
First – Every encounter where a victim just shows a gun and de-escalates the situation is the functional equivalent. Second, probably many of home defenses start with an empty chamber or a locked gun. And, how many new organizations report on what condition a weapon was in before it was fired? I can turn that question around and ask you to find me articles that state when the weapon was loaded before the incident. This is know as a gratutitis question. I don't accept that any pistols were loaded before the incident - find me one case where the article states at what point the gun was loaded. Or in other words - find me a case where an empty chamber gun carrier was killed.
I’ll continue later – if necessary…
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