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theskaz

I am all that is BACON!
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So I want to grab a lens or 2 and am having a tad but of trouble locating exactly what I want.

I have a Nikon D40 with a stock lens. (17-55mm i think)

I was looking for cheap lenses for the following

low-light
distance

This is only a hobby and If i spend 500 bucks on a lens, my wife will kill me.

for the low light, as I understand it, I want something with a low Fstop. like 1.8 or 1.4 right? im talking about night shots with no flash. IMO flash ruins my pics.

for the distance, will a cheap 50-200/300mm with a 2x telephoto thingy work well?

Brands? anything else I need to consider?

what is macro in layman's terms?
 
How dark?

How far away?

Night shots, and flash are difficult for me too!

I will be interested in what others have to say.

I have a flash and if you disperse the light correctly, it usually comes out better than head on lighting.

Bubba

Macro is up close focusing that you must move the camera in or out to achieve proper focus - close up photography.
 
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how dark? night (4th of july fireworks)

how far away? idk yet. something I can reach out and touch something. 200m is not enough.

how do you disperse the light? if I use flash, its on someones face and it looks crappy IMO.

Macro seems fun.

Thansk Bubba!
 
You will probably have a difficult time finding a good lens for low-light that is cheap. You could get a 50mm f/1.8 fairly cheap, but it is a fixed focal length. Good for close up or portraits. The 70mm-200mm f/2.8 lens that I want is about $2000. So, it's still on my wish list.

You can get decent outdoor zooms for about $250.
 
how dark? night (4th of july fireworks)

how far away? idk yet. something I can reach out and touch something. 200m is not enough.

how do you disperse the light? if I use flash, its on someones face and it looks crappy IMO.

Macro seems fun.

Thansk Bubba!


Keven,

The 4th is great for "B" setting Photography and I can give you the how to.
You don't need to have a great lens either, what you have will do just fine.
Let me see if I can dig up some film pics I did. They are very fun to do and come out great. I have one that looks like a palm tree lit up.

Bubba
 
Here are some that I got with the stock lens.

This one I tried to get that kid flinging that light thingy around but couldnt get the camera to stop moving...
DSC_0321.jpg

DSC_0336.jpg

DSC_0496.jpg

DSC_0526.jpg

DSC_0321.jpg


DSC_0336.jpg


DSC_0496.jpg


DSC_0526.jpg
 
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Keven,

The 4th is great for "B" setting Photography and I can give you the how to.
You don't need to have a great lens either, what you have will do just fine.
Let me see if I can dig up some film pics I did. They are very fun to do and come out great. I have one that looks like a palm tree lit up.

Bubba

B? thats a new one on me. Lay it on meh brotha
 
B? thats a new one on me. Lay it on meh brotha

B setting on your shutter priority is simply the ability to keep the shutters open as long as you hold the button down.
It is best used with a remote cable & tripod to reduce shake from your hand, but if you have a steady tripod you can still get by without the cable.

You set your fstop higher than you would think. You don't want to overexpose since you are going to open the curtains for a longer time. I usually listen for the blast as they fire them and hold the shutter open until the entire firework has gone off. But you can vary this for different affects.

Bubba
 
I was in manual mode for all of those and my fstop was as whatever the default for zoomed in all the way. I just changed my exposure to brighten the pic so you can actually see what is going on. I took over 200 pics of those fireworks and those 2 were the only ones that came up clear. So I was thinking a lens with a lower numbered fstop would allow more light in and allow a faster shutter speed.
 
Okay...

You're on the right track with your understanding of aperture and shutter speed. Congratulations! Nice job not being afraid to use manual mode as well.

The EXIF information that should be on your photos isn't, so I can't tell what settings you chose when you shot them. What ISO setting did you use? Keep in mind that doubling your ISO setting is another way to increase your shutter speed when you are maxed out on your lenses' aperture. Forgive me if you already know this, but since I can't consult your EXIF, I don't know what ISO you chose to use.

The "b" setting stands for "bulb". Bubba is correct that once activated, it will hold your shutter open until you choose to push the shutter button again (or preferably use a remote shutter release). The term bulb dates back to very early cameras that used air pressure (from a hand "squeeze" pump) to open the shutter.

Bulb mode is the preferred method to capture fireworks displays among most photographers. Generally what is done is the camera is secured to a tripod, a dark colored card or cloth is placed over the lense, then the shutter is opened via remote shutter release with the camera selected to bulb mode. As a firework explodes in the air, the card or cloth is removed from the lense for a few seconds, then replaced. Using this method, a photographer can capture a single photo of multiple fireworks detonated at significantly different time periods. Once the photographer is finished collecting images, the shutter is closed.

You're going to have a tough time finding a lense in the price range you've specified with the features you've requested. "Fast" glass (i.e. a lense with a wide apeture) is not cheap in most cases, save for the venerable 50mm entry level primes that both Canon and Nikon have.

You might have some luck looking into lenses from Tamron or Sigma. They're not the best when it comes to build or optical quality, but they're very good for the money. Check out Digital Cameras: Digital Photography Review, News, Reviews, Forums, FAQ for reviews of different lenses and camera bodies. fredmiranda.com: Specialized in Canon - Nikon SLR Cameras, Forum, Photoshop Plugins, Actions, Reviews, Hosting and Digital Darkroom is another good source.

Teleconverters are generally not considered good once you exceed a 1.4X magnification. They also suck up precious light...not a good thing when working with extended focal lengths.

What I see in the photos you shared more than anything is the need for a tripod and perhaps a remote shutter release...or do what I do when using a tripod and use the camera's self timer (probably not ideal for photographing fireworks).

Personally, when shooting at night, my preference is for the smallest aperture I can get...not the widest...but I don't hand hold a camera at night - that's what tripods are for.

You can pick up a tripod for $50-$90. That will be a lot easier to justify to the significant other than a $1500+ lense (though those are very nice to have).

Here are a few shots I've taken at night for reference. I haven't yet been able to make it to a fireworks display...just too busy these days. All but one of the photographs below was taken using a tripod, and most of them were shot at f22.

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Kudos for realizing your on-camera flash ruins your photos. Lenses with wider aperture (larger fstop numbers) will allow you to take advantage of natural light in more situations (as will increasing your ISO speed). At some point though you will still need more light, and that leads to a whole new level of challenges to overcome. Speedlights can produce much better results than your built-in flash, if used properly. Speedlights can be bounced off walls and ceilings to soften the light hitting your subjects, as well as show more detail in your subjects. Strobes are phenomenal tools to work with, but are relatively expensive.

What else did you ask about? Oh yeah, macro. A true macro lense will produce an image on your camera's sensor that is a 1:1 representation of your subject. Macro photography is challenging, fun, and frustrating at times.

I don't have a lot of macro photos ready for a quick upload to this website, but here is a macro shot of one of my header bolts that stripped when I installed the headers on my bike.

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I hope you found some helpful information in there somewhere. Happy shooting!
 
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Pic 1
Fstop - f/5.6
Exp 2 sec
ISO 400

Pic 2
F-stop f/4
Exp 1/5 sec
ISO speed ISO-400

Pic 3
Fstop f/5.6
exp 1/3 sec
ISO 400

Pic 4
Fstop 5.6
exp 1.3 sec
ISO 400

Good Lord, That post filled in a lot of holes. :bowdown:

Im not picking up as fast as I figured on this stuff. I forgot about setting my ISO altogether was just worried about shutter speed. Thanks so much for the extremely detailed response. and I still want to move into that room.... just sayin' lol. Ill go snatch up a tripod and play around some. again, Thank You!

I think the macro shots are amazing. I would love to play around with that.
 
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Take your time and enjoy the learning process.

"Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson is a book I think you'd get a lot out of.

Looks like even though you overlooked the ISO settings, you were probably pretty close to maxed out on that end before noise in your photos became an issue.

Another thing to keep in mind before you push the shutter button when hand holding your camera is to double check your shutter speed. Your original question about wider aperture lenses demonstrates you understand that you need faster shutter speeds to get clearer photos. The standard rule of thumb is this:

The lower number in the shutter speed fraction (for example "125" in a 1/125 second exposure) is a pretty good guideline to use as a maximum focal length to use in that condition.

One of the things I do every time before I push the shutter button is double check the shutter speed against the focal length. If the denominator in the fraction is less than the focal length I've selected, there is a very good chance I'm going to end up with a photo that is going to be blurry and useless.

I don't know if I'm communicating this clearly, so here are some examples....

1/125 with 200mm focal length = no. Either open the aperture if both mechanically and artistically possible, increase the ISO if noise isn't a concern, move closer to the subject and reduce focal length to less than 125mm, or get a tripod. Just one of these variables may correct the issue before I take the photo, or it might take a combination of small changes to multiple items listed above.

1/60 with 50mm focal length = fire away.

If you were zoomed in to 55mm (max suspected for your lense) and handholding, your shutter speed needs to be at least as fast as 1/60 to give you a reasonable chance at a clear photo.

Your third photo is one I'd like to use as an example for what you'd need to do. I've selected this one because it is a very good exposure.

Here are the settings you posted for this one:
Pic 3
Fstop f/5.6
exp 1/3 sec
ISO 400

I'm going to assume the focal length used was 18mm. I don't know that it was, but that's my best guess from looking at the photos you posted.

Let's see what it would take to have a good chance to take a photo like this while hand holding...

We need to get to a minimum shutter speed of 1/18 (remember our assumption the focal length for that photo is 18mm)...not a standard speed, so let's move to the next fastest you should be able to set your shutter to - 1/20.

How can we get from a 1/3 second exposure to a 1/20 second exposure?

We're probably already at the acceptable ISO limits for your camera at 400, but for the purpose of this example, let's bump that up to ISO 800. That will allow us to increase the shutter speed from 1/3 second to 1/6 second.

The aperture setting used was f5.6. At 18mm, you will be able to open the aperture to the maximum your lense is capable of...probably f3.5 or so. For simplicity's sake, let's stick with f4.0, which is twice the diameter of f5.6. This will allow us to increase the shutter speed to 1/13 because the lense is now capable of "flowing" twice as much light in a given time as it was at f5.6.

1/13 still doesn't get us where we need to be. If you bought a lense with a maximum aperture of f2.8 (another doubling of aperture diameter), you now would be able to take that photo at 1/25 (half the time you would need at f4.0).

Success...kind of. We're still left with a photo that may not be acceptable due to noise from our decision to bump the ISO up to 800. To get the ISO back down to 400, we'll need a lense that can open up to f1.8, which will allow us to keep our 1/25 second exposure.

Ideally, if we're planning to print a reasonably sized image of our work, we'd like to get the ISO down to 100 with this model of camera. We've pretty much exhausted our options on the aperture side of the equation (though 1.2 or so is obtainable if money isn't a limitation). To shoot this photo at ISO 100 and 1/25 second is not going to be possible.

That brings us to the final answer...which is the best solution to begin with in this example...use a tripod to eliminate camera shake.

Have fun experimenting and learning!
 
F=MA,

I took me 1/3 of your post to figure out what focal length. Also learned that if I right click the photo and go to properties, it will tell me everything about the pic. thats cool as hell.

I got a few more questions.

What does the ISO change as far as the pic is concerned? I took 2 photos of a close object and one was ISO 200 and the other was 1600. I obviously changed the exposure to compensate, but i didnt see any visibe difference.

Noise? is that static in a photo?

Let me see if I got this:

Higher Fstop will put more into focus but allow less light.
lower fstop will allow more light but change the focus to allow only a certain depth to focus (making some cool pics)

If i want to shoot low light distant objects I want a higher fstop and slower shutter speed. and I always want the lowest ISO(200 for the D40) I can go with?
 
ISO works similar to how film was ASA rated. In a digital camera, every doubling of the ISO setting is equal to a doubling of how sensitive the camera's image sensor is to light.

The simple answer to your question is if you can't see a difference, don't worry about it. Ignorance may be bliss here. :laugh:

The more detailed answer:

Noise in the digital world is like grain in the film world. The higher the ISO or ASA speed, the more noise or grain, respectively, would be found in the final product.

I've looked through a portion of my collection and I haven't found a suitable sample to show you, as I tend to prefer very clean images, and my camera choice also tends to produce little or no noise. Noise can also be created or reduced by what is done in post processing of the digital image.

If you look at your images at 100% size, which is much larger than what you see when the image is entirely displayed on your computer screen, you might notice a texture, or graininess to the image...particularly when you look into areas of fairly uniform color such as skies. This is noise. It has to be pretty bad to be seen at the size of photo that generally gets posted on this message board, and if you make a print smaller than 8x10 you'll probably not notice it either unless you know what to look for. Perhaps ignorance is bliss?

Noise, and image quality, are things that get lost in the marketing hype promoting the number of megapixels a camera has. If 8 MP is good, 10 MP must be better right? Not necessarily...particularly when those extra pixels of resolution are crammed onto the same size image sensor. Noise increases with pixel density...particularly on entry level dSLR's. This doesn't mean the 10MP model is inferior to the 8MP model overall. It means megapixels are not the end all statistic we are lead to believe it is.

Your understanding of aperture is pretty good. Realize that higher f-stop numbers will bring more of the image into focus (or as photographers would say increase the "depth of field"), but will also result in a loss of maximum sharpness in the sharpest part of the image.

There are a few misconceptions in your last sentence. If you'll allow, I'll try to address those.

You asked "If i want to shoot low light distant objects I want a higher fstop and slower shutter speed. and I always want the lowest ISO(200 for the D40) I can go with?"

You are more than just an aspiring photographer, you are also an aspiring artist. In the world of art, there are no absolutes, and rules are made to be broken in the name of artistic expression. In time, perhaps, you'll move beyond viewing yourself as a camera operator, and view yourself as a creator of moods...using your photographs to convey more than just "on this date and place this thing was there". To say "always" when it comes to art is much too limiting.

Shooting "low light distant objects" is fundamentally no different than shooting any other subject, though it presents different challenges. One initial goal with any photograph is to get the exposure correct. You're working with Manual mode now (congratulations for exceeding the ambition of 90% of dSLR owners b.t.w. :cheerleader: ) and you've realized there are several ways you can get a "correct" exposure though different combinations of shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and addition or subtraction of light. One of the next steps in your skills development is learning which method of exposure best suits the subject and mood you are working to create with your photograph.

I have a love of night photography. I enjoy making urban scenes at night. Sometimes I like to convey a sense of motion in my photographs. Oftentimes people walk through the scene as I'm taking the photo.

For all the reasons above, I tend to shoot at small apertures at night. Architectural images seem to work best in my opinion when the majority of the image appears to be in focus. Noise can be reduced with lower ISO settings to a point, though exposures of thirty seconds or more can start to reveal a different type of noise in some cases. The long exposure time I get by using a combination of small apertures (larger f-stop numbers) does wonderful things to lights in the images, and makes the pedestrian walking through the scene disappear completely from the photograph.

These are reasons I often shoot like this at night. The main point I was trying to make earlier is not that you should shoot this way at night, but instead that it isn't necessary to seek the fastest shutter speed you can obtain to capture an image at night.

In the "Streets of Madrid" photo above (the next to last one in my first post in this thread), you'll notice some interesting things if you look closely at the photo.

I hope this has been helpful as you work to improve your skills.
 
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There was a time when I would have understood more than one line of what F=MA says but now no. If you don't stay up on it it fades fast .
Now I just use a Sony Cybershot which is decent for what I need .
Here's a pic I took last yr at my dads house of his back yard. That is actually the moon and you can see Venus rising beneath it . I set the camera to nightshot with a 'open shutter' of 30 seconds , set it on his railing upstairs on balcony and pressed the button. One thing I have learned for myself is I'm lucky if one out of every twenty pics I take is worth keeping . Big reason I like digital cams with large mem cards . I just click away and review later at home . Most get deleted but I wind up with a few keepers .
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another pic same camera same settings taken at Golden Coast hotel in Agia Napa , Cyprus
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F=MA that is one close pic of that bolt .
Awesome and incredible detail :bowdown:
 
Hello F=MA!

As always I am amazed and delighted when you post up on this subject.

I always walk away more knowledgeable about the art of Photography, and the technical aspects as well.

Thanks for the pics and the dissertation on this subject.

Keven, listen to this man and you will improve all aspects of your art. I believe I told you at breakfast once that F=MA was the best and most knowledgeable Photographer on the Org.

Now here are my :2cents:

ISO to me was huge as a film user. I would hardly ever use anything but T-Max 100. This was because the difference in film ISO was so much more apparent than in the digital world.
The grain between 100 and 400 would stick out and even the most untrained eye could see it.
This also blended to the type of photography I was doing at the time, sports such as football baseball and some basketball.
I usually was shooting in the brightest times of the day and was able to keep the shutter speed higher to "stop action", in this respect I was more a techno guy and to this day have zero artistic skills. I simply enjoy the sport of photography and appreciate the art that others have. Truth be told, my wife is the actual artist and takes for better pictures than I.

In today's digital cameras, there is very much less grain or "Noise" between ISO settings. I once forgot to change ISO from the night before and was taking pictures at 1250 ISO in the day and could slightly see the difference at normal viewing. These cameras are just that good.

That said, being an old film guy, I still try as hard as I can to set the ISO as low as I can.

What Bryan says about pixel wars is spot on, I have a picture in my living room that was taken with a point and shoot 4M camera, and I blew it up to 24" X 36" and it looks great! Very little noise due to the ISO being 80.
I also did no post picture processing at all. So don't let them tell you that higher pixel = better camera, just is not true. Besides, it really is the artistry of this that makes a pic worth viewing.

When I post pics on the board they mean something more than just a shot of a bike or two. To me photos are like something I give of me, they are like thumbprints in time, can never be duplicated - Ever!

So when you see pics from me, it is like a small token of my appreciation, I just wish I was better at it so I could give more.

I wish I could be of more help to you on night photography, but I am more of a day bug myself. I also wish I could make the house warming event and we could have practiced together.

Thanks for the ear,
Bubba
 
another pic same camera same settings taken at Golden Coast hotel in Agia Napa , Cyprus
8966cc33.jpg




F=MA that is one close pic of that bolt .
Awesome and incredible detail :bowdown:

Thanks Saiid. The thread that photo was produced for can be found
123745-talk-me-down-ledge.html
, if anyone would like to laugh at my header installation challenges.

Thanks also Bubba. You're too kind.
 
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