Fogging vs Spraybar

But the temp at the tips of the spray lines would be far colder than the temp of the fog at the t/b. Colder=denser. Understood. Thanks for explaining what you meant.:beerchug:

The tips of the nozzles at the point of exit is the same temp until the Nitrous is expelled. With the Fan Spray the temp starts to go up at a distance of 8 inches from the end. With the Spraybar the temp of the Nitrous starts to go up at a distance of about 18 inches. At discharge of Both nozzles the temp is around -125 degrees.

I'll post more pics later.
 
The tips of the nozzles at the point of exit is the same temp until the Nitrous is expelled. With the Fan Spray the temp starts to go up at a distance of 8 inches from the end. With the Spraybar the temp of the Nitrous starts to go up at a distance of about 18 inches. At discharge of Both nozzles the temp is around -125 degrees.

I'll post more pics later.
Makes sense, a stream vs a fan pattern.
 
Some of the things stated in this thread are confusing to me...Nitrous makes power in three different ways. Air box fogging utilizes 2 of these methods, and spray bars utilize all three methods.

Oxygen Concentration: Simply stated - Air is 20.9% O2 and Nitrous is 33%. The more nitrous you spray, the closer your O2 concentration gets to 33%. You can't go higher than 33% concentration, and this is one of the reasons why air box fogging benefits start to max out at shot sizes over 75 - 90 HP or so. You can keep adding N2O, but you stop making any noticible power at this point because of the 33% concentration limit.

Liquid Phase Induction: This is how spray bars make power not limited to 33% concentration...If the nitrous is injected close enough to the back of the valve, a good portion of it is injected into the cylinder as liquid phase. It gets into the cylinder, changes phase into gas expanding wildly, and actually chemically breaks down into nitrogen and oxygen well before combustion. The point is that you can get an enourmous amount of liquid nitrous into the cylinder before it changes phase. This is the principle difference and advantage that spray bars have over box foggers. The more liquid phase N2O you can stuff under the valve, the more power you can make. In theory a good spray bar is only limited by hydro-lock (not likely!).

Phase-Change Cooling is the third method: Since natural gas law states that density has to go down linearly with absolute temperature, the colder you get your intake, the more moles of O2 you can suck in. Although Gixx points out that the temp at the tip of a spray bar is much colder, the physics are such that the same amount of phase change cooling occurs in spray bars and box foggers (for the same jet size). The only difference is that the farther you get away from the injector, the more heat is pulled out of the surrounding air.

Another effect that is kind of a combination of item 2 and 3 is that the gasoline injected from a fuel injector is less likely to vaporize and expand prior to passing into the cylinder due to the low temperatures it sees from N2O. The trick with fuel induction is to get good atomization without gas phase vaporization. You want small drops that are still liquid phase and not taking up volume.

Maybe this confused things. Maybe not. My $.02.
 
The density (specific volume), pressure, and temperature of a gas are related to each other through the equation of state. The state of a gas can be changed by external forces, and the reaction of the gas can be predicted using the laws of thermodynamics. A fundamental understanding of thermodynamics is very important in describing the operation of Nitrous.
Speed is also a Factor that most to do not equate when Fogging vs a Spraybar so let me add to the confusion. The further away your nozzle is away from the combustion chamber the less amount of Nitrous will enter the combustion chamber for that Intake cycle. This is due to the speed in which the valves open and close per engine revolution,the expansion of the Nitrous inside of the airbox (or Ramair tubes) aand the dilution of the Nitrous by external forces all play a factor. Most call it (a softer hit) but in fact it is just less Nitrous going into the combustion chamber. So the speed in which you can get the Nitrous in the motor is also a factor. --- I'm getting a headache
 
This is getting very interesting. Gixx: If I have two nozzles (one in each ram air tube) with a 24 jet in each nozzle, its not putting all the nitrous into the combustion chamber that a single 34 jet with a spray bar would?
 
i liked those little billet manifolds that sandwich inbetween the throttle bodies and the head.
 
Draco:
If as you say, liquid phase induction is a benefit of spray bars, wouldn't you have to add more fuel than conventionally called for (given a specific jet) size to compensate for the extra oxygen?
 
Fan Spray Nozzle

FanSprayNozzle003.jpg


Fan Spray without a Filter

IMG_2793.jpg


Fan Spray with the filter

IMG_2795.jpg


Underneath the filter after spraying.Remember,this is a static test. Icing will probably not occur while air is passing through the filter.

IMG_2797.jpg
 
Draco:
If as you say, liquid phase induction is a benefit of spray bars, wouldn't you have to add more fuel than conventionally called for (given a specific jet) size to compensate for the extra oxygen?

Yes and no. What I mean to say is that you can keep adding more and more nitrous and fuel with a spray bar in proportion, and power will continue to increase. The motors pumping efficiency isn't greatly affected by liquid phase injection. Fogging the box gives you diminishing results at higher shot sizes because the motor is pumping gas-phase. The result is that a hundred shot with a bar would need more fuel than with a fogged box or ram air tube because a fogger system is theoretically limited to about 112 CC of super cold 1 atmosphere Oxygen. (1300 CC/ 4 cylinders * 33%). You can put the biggest jet they make into the box, and it won't put more than 112 ccs of O2 in there. A spray bar can easily double that volume if you wished to. This is a bit simplistic and doesn't take into account temperature effect but ...
 
Yes and no. What I mean to say is that you can keep adding more and more nitrous and fuel with a spray bar in proportion, and power will continue to increase. The motors pumping efficiency isn't greatly affected by liquid phase injection. Fogging the box gives you diminishing results at higher shot sizes because the motor is pumping gas-phase. The result is that a hundred shot with a bar would need more fuel than with a fogged box or ram air tube because a fogger system is theoretically limited to about 112 CC of super cold 1 atmosphere Oxygen. (1300 CC/ 4 cylinders * 33%). You can put the biggest jet they make into the box, and it won't put more than 112 ccs of O2 in there. A spray bar can easily double that volume if you wished to. This is a bit simplistic and doesn't take into account temperature effect but ...

I am jumping up and down and running around the house naked and screaming--finally one person that understands. I can sleep peacefully tonight.
 
Yes and no. What I mean to say is that you can keep adding more and more nitrous and fuel with a spray bar in proportion, and power will continue to increase. The motors pumping efficiency isn't greatly affected by liquid phase injection. Fogging the box gives you diminishing results at higher shot sizes because the motor is pumping gas-phase. The result is that a hundred shot with a bar would need more fuel than with a fogged box or ram air tube because a fogger system is theoretically limited to about 112 CC of super cold 1 atmosphere Oxygen. (1300 CC/ 4 cylinders * 33%). You can put the biggest jet they make into the box, and it won't put more than 112 ccs of O2 in there. A spray bar can easily double that volume if you wished to. This is a bit simplistic and doesn't take into account temperature effect but ...
I understand what you are saying. The ram air effect would increase the pressure slightly above 1 atmosphere, but not very much I suppose. Thank you both for explaining this to me. :beerchug: I'm not a total noob when it comes to spray, but I have a lot to learn.:banghead:
 
Oh god, the nightmares.
Posted via Mobile Device
it is the countless days of fooling around trying stuff that keeps you awake... middle of the night you get this brain storm... all the theory is nice but the real world sometimes proves a PITA.. on a 40 Hp shot? I am going to bet it is not going to be a discernible difference... You start pushing enough nitrous to displace the normal air volume? yea, get the liquid down the back side of the valve... not exactly a 1200hp nitrous system feeding a mountain motor..
 
it is the countless days of fooling around trying stuff that keeps you awake... middle of the night you get this brain storm... all the theory is nice but the real world sometimes proves a PITA.. on a 40 Hp shot? I am going to bet it is not going to be a discernible difference... You start pushing enough nitrous to displace the normal air volume? yea, get the liquid down the back side of the valve... not exactly a 1200hp nitrous system feeding a mountain motor..

My Spraybars are designed to increase airflow into the velocity stacks. That is why the needle nozzles go past the event horizon of the velocity stacks. Please do a search on Bernoulli's principle and the Venturi Effect
 
Last edited:
I am fully aware of the implications.. just saying on these bikes, the influence is probably minimal... I appreciate the engineering and the work involved but as a guy that had to install hot rod stuff on engines for a living, cost vs benefit was a big deal..

Also, the nitrous induced upstream of the airflow is going to condense the air somewhat anyway so you get some air density help there..

my point was if you have a motor inhaling 2 lbs of nitrous a second at 9000 rpm, I wonder how much help all the engineering is going to produce...

What I do see that would bother me about the fogger nozzle is that block of nitrous ice on the air cleaner... that alone would push me away from the fogger at that location..

we were able to get a lot of volume on a nitrous setup but found out that we had to run 100psi of fuel pressure on the wet systems to get the atomization as we got the nozzles down on the intake valve (we pinched a bunch of piston ring lands from detonation for lean spots in the combustion chamber) but this was a wet system..

not trying to discount the system, more wanting to know that actual benefits as shown on the track.. There are a million tweaks and a few work really well.. those, do not get shared very often. :)
 
My Spraybars are designed to increase airflow into the velocity stacks. That is why the needle nozzles go past the event horizon of the velocity stacks. Please do a search on Bernoulli's principle and the Venturi Effect

Maybe you should pony up some $$$ to buy some of ANSYS software, model what you have jsut stated and PROVE your claims, write a whitepaper on it ans submit it to SAE for peer review, Those are some pretty big claims you are making.

And yes i have a masters in Fluid Dymanics
 
Maybe you should pony up some $$$ to buy some of ANSYS software, model what you have jsut stated and PROVE your claims, write a whitepaper on it ans submit it to SAE for peer review, Those are some pretty big claims you are making.

And yes i have a masters in Fluid Dymanics

Tell you what. You pony up some money and I will gladly post my info. Like I stated in my post above (too many of my products have been copied). Oh by the way have you heard of Sypris Solutions
 
Back
Top