The starting problems start!

[Viperam]

First off, i spent 3 hours on here last night researching stator, rectifier, starter, and battery. And im not finding anything that matches my issue, or any facts on how to test some of these systems. So i need your help.

When i bought my hayabusa last week the guy told me it needed a starter.
I was ok with that. For the money i paid for it, I had extra to buy one if need be.

When its cold, the starter spins its ass off and the headlights shine strong while its spinning, and fires right up. Ride it for 20 minutes cut it off and try again. It turns slow and stops after 3-4 rotations headlights dimming almost dark. You can feel the exhaust valves open from the Poof at the exhaust so it is turning over.

First thing i did was test the battery. It was borderline so i bought another.
Charged it 8 hours. Fired up fine 4 times in a row while it was cold, rode it 20 minutes, and then the same issue. It turns over slow 2-5 rotations and stops, Headlights dim.

I do my research and some say weak starter, some say bad ground, some say faulty rectifier.

But here is the thing.... If i hit the starter button and it turns over slow, i release it, wait for fuel pump to stop running and hit it again sometimes, very randomly it will spin fast like everything is ok and the bike starts. Cut it off ,hit the starter and its dead again. Hit it again and it spinds strong.

The colder the bike is the more consistent it starts the headlights shining strong while cranking. The hotter it is the worse the problem gets, with headlights dimming and each time try it sounds like the fuel pump gets weaker. That one time you hit it just right the fuel pump sounds strong the starter is strong and the headlights are bright. WTF!

 

[Commuta_Busa]

what year busa and how many miles? Sounds like stator and/or rectifier problem. You can test both to make sure they're operating correctly. The manual contains the proper testing process.

 

[Mr Bogus]

or could be in the starter clutch/idler/gear setup... Seems I saw someone had the identical issue and traced it down to the starter clutch setup.. sorry dont have more but I will see if I can find who it was..

 

[Viperam]

what year busa and how many miles? Sounds like stator and/or rectifier problem. You can test both to make sure they're operating correctly. The manual contains the proper testing process.

Its a 2003 with 4300 miles. Stored in the guys living room. One owner.

Thats actually what im looking for. I need to know the resistance and voltages of the Rectifier and the Stator, but its going to take a few days to get the manual to get the specs on it.

 

[Viperam]

or could be in the starter clutch/idler/gear setup... Seems I saw someone had the identical issue and traced it down to the starter clutch setup.. sorry dont have more but I will see if I can find who it was..

Im confident the the gear and starter clutch are fine, as the other symptoms lead to an electrical problems. It is engaging and turning the motor over, just so slowly it wont start, then it comes to a stop. I try it again and again, and it acts brand new!

I could be wrong but id suspect different symptoms for the starter clutch line whirring, whining, and it not engaging

 

[oskala]

First off, i spent 3 hours on here last night researching stator, rectifier, starter, and battery. And im not finding anything that matches my issue, or any facts on how to test some of these systems. So i need your help.

When i bought my hayabusa last week the guy told me it needed a starter.
I was ok with that. For the money i paid for it, I had extra to buy one if need be.

When its cold, the starter spins its ass off and the headlights shine strong while its spinning, and fires right up. Ride it for 20 minutes cut it off and try again. It turns slow and stops after 3-4 rotations headlights dimming almost dark. You can feel the exhaust valves open from the Poof at the exhaust so it is turning over.

First thing i did was test the battery. It was borderline so i bought another.
Charged it 8 hours. Fired up fine 4 times in a row while it was cold, rode it 20 minutes, and then the same issue. It turns over slow 2-5 rotations and stops, Headlights dim.

I do my research and some say weak starter, some say bad ground, some say faulty rectifier.

But here is the thing.... If i hit the starter button and it turns over slow, i release it, wait for fuel pump to stop running and hit it again sometimes, very randomly it will spin fast like everything is ok and the bike starts. Cut it off ,hit the starter and its dead again. Hit it again and it spinds strong.

The colder the bike is the more consistent it starts the headlights shining strong while cranking. The hotter it is the worse the problem gets, with headlights dimming and each time try it sounds like the fuel pump gets weaker. That one time you hit it just right the fuel pump sounds strong the starter is strong and the headlights are bright. WTF!

Hi, I would start at the beginning. Have a good known Batt. or charge your batt good because electrical problems diagnosis involves a good, fully charged Batt.. Then do a load test on the Batt. to be SURE it's good. Next step, install Batt. and make sure you have a GOOD GROUND, and all the cables and wires are tight and NOT corroded. Then get out Multi-Meter out and make sure the electrical system is charging. If your bike is charging, then I would proceed to the starting system. Check the electrical connection on the starter, and then see how many amps the starter is drawing when the bike is cold and especially when it's hot. If the starter checks out then I would start thinking about checking all wires that activate the starter including handlebar wiring, Then as mentioned check out the starter bendix/clutch and any associated jack shafts etc. that are a part of the starters power flow. I'll be around all day so if you want you can email me and I'll do my best to help you diagnose your starting problem. No fun being stranded with the best M/C in the world!

alakso@hotmail.com

PS: If needed you can also call me. I'll email you my home phone if you still need help.

 

[mike1180]

This may help:

 

[Viperam]

This may help:

Good post, but not helpful in this instance, as my starter is spinning. Slowly, and after 3 revolutions stops and the headlights go dim. I immediatly try again and again, and randomly it will spin its ass off

 

[Viperam]

Ok i put a multimeter on it.

Battery sitting is 13.8 volts, when it starts good when its cold. The voltage under load is 11.3 and once started it idles at 14.4 volts and at 5k rpm it goes up to 14.7 volts. These numbers look perfectly normal to me. Any comments?

I havent checked the voltage while its acting up, i have to drive it during lunch and get it hot to replicate the issue. When i get the numbers i will post.

Anyone have the resistance at the stator, or have any info on testing the rectifier/regulator?

 

[mike1180]

True, but if it were me I would check all the things that are listed as if it wasn't spinning.
There is an electrical loss somewhere - poor connection, partially open wire, bad relay, dirty connector, something is draining it down so it turns slowly.
Also new batteries are no good sometimes.
Here is a no load test. If it passes, then you could try a load test.

 

[Viperam]

True, but if it were me I would check all the things that are listed as if it wasn't spinning.
There is an electrical loss somewhere - poor connection, partially open wire, bad relay, dirty connector, something is draining it down so it turns slowly.
Also new batteries are no good sometimes.
Here is a no load test. If it passes, then you could try a load test.

Ive done a no-load and a load test when the bike wasnt acting up.
8 hours after the bike was off the trickle charger the battery was 13.8 On a load it didnt drop below 11.3

It traced out the wires going to the starter and the rectifier from the battery. I removed them, cleaned them, greased them and reinstalled. No change.

What is bizarre is when its acting up it doesnt matter if i have it jumped or not. There is zero change in the slow starting jumper cables or not. The headlight still dims and it still turns over to slow to start. I take the battery out and put on my charger and it wont take any. Shows it fully charged.

So the battery and cables are completely eliminated from the equation.

Im down to a rectifier that is randomly leaking voltage to ground, or possibly a shorted stator. Any info on how to test them?

 

[BusaWhipped]

Its most likely the starter. The warmer copper gets, the higher the resistance, which is why it isn't causing problems cold.

 

[mike1180]

You can download a manual from here:
All of the information will be in there.
Good luck and let us know.

https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/maintenance-do-yourself/24284-permanent-shop-manual-hosting.html

 

[Mr Bogus]

random hard cranking issues that are there one minute and gone the next probably are not related to the charging system..

You should probably get an amp draw during the condition.. Voltage drop might help but if the thing is pulling the amps, (lights going dim) you either have a heavy load on the starter (mechanical drag) or the starter itself is taking a hit

Did you buy a "brand new" starter or just a starter that is "new" to the bike (used)

a volt meter and an amp meter go a long ways on this type of problem... .

amps are high? you can skip right over most of the electrical system bugs... go right to the starter and work forward to the motor..

Also, cables can look perfectly fine and still be bad (above 2 meters will find that issue).. never say never

 

[oskala]

I'm starting to think it's the starter also. When it's warm either from electricity flowing through it or from engine heat a bad starter will draw mega amps and kill the stored energy in your Batt.. I don't have a manual but 14.7 volts sounds a little high to me for a 12 volt system? If your bike is over charging it will quickly cook your Batt.!

Anyone know the exact upper limit charging voltage for this bike (or any 12 volt system)?

You mentioned "grease" when you cleaned your wires and connections. Are you talking about Dilectric grease or regular grease?

And finally when you checked your Batt's charging system you were checking the retifier/regulator.

What I would do next is get an amp meter and run it in series with the starter and see how many amps the starter is drawing when it's both cold and hot. You may have two problems, one with the starters winding and also a bad rectifier which is over charging your Batt..

 

[Mr Bogus]

I'm starting to think it's the starter also. When it's warm either from electricity flowing through it or from engine heat a bad starter will draw mega amps and kill the stored energy in your Batt.. I don't have a manual but 14.7 volts sounds a little high to me for a 12 volt system? If your bike is over charging it will quickly cook your Batt.!

You are correct, 14.7 indicates sulfation or a bad regulator

Anyone know the exact upper limit charging voltage for this bike (or any 12 volt system)? 13.5 is middle of the green zone with 14.7 in the red

You mentioned "grease" when you cleaned your wires and connections. Are you talking about Dilectric grease or regular grease? would not use either myself

And finally when you checked your Batt's charging system you were checking the retifier/regulator.

What I would do next is get an amp meter and run it in series with the starter and see how many amps the starter is drawing when it's both cold and hot. You may have two problems, one with the starters winding and also a bad rectifier which is over charging your Batt..

 

[oskala]

random hard cranking issues that are there one minute and gone the next probably are not related to the charging system..

You should probably get an amp draw during the condition.. Voltage drop might help but if the thing is pulling the amps, (lights going dim) you either have a heavy load on the starter (mechanical drag) or the starter itself is taking a hit

Did you buy a "brand new" starter or just a starter that is "new" to the bike (used)

a volt meter and an amp meter go a long ways on this type of problem... .

amps are high? you can skip right over most of the electrical system bugs... go right to the starter and work forward to the motor..

Also, cables can look perfectly fine and still be bad (above 2 meters will find that issue).. never say never

Good point about the cables.

Jeff, if possible do an Ohm test on your cables to see if you have to much resistance in your cables. Cables, like brake hoses can look good on the outside and still be bad inside.

 

[oskala]

I'm starting to think it's the starter also. When it's warm either from electricity flowing through it or from engine heat a bad starter will draw mega amps and kill the stored energy in your Batt.. I don't have a manual but 14.7 volts sounds a little high to me for a 12 volt system? If your bike is over charging it will quickly cook your Batt.!

You are correct, 14.7 indicates sulfation or a bad regulator

Anyone know the exact upper limit charging voltage for this bike (or any 12 volt system)? 13.5 is middle of the green zone with 14.7 in the red

You mentioned "grease" when you cleaned your wires and connections. Are you talking about Dilectric grease or regular grease? would not use either myself

And finally when you checked your Batt's charging system you were checking the retifier/regulator.

What I would do next is get an amp meter and run it in series with the starter and see how many amps the starter is drawing when it's both cold and hot. You may have two problems, one with the starters winding and also a bad rectifier which is over charging your Batt..

I agree. I think the rectifier/regulator is over charging the Batt. which leads to sulfation. I usually look for arond 13.5-13.9 volts from the charging system.

I also don't use any type of grease for electrical connections except for Dilectric grease when it's called for in the manual. Usually for weather-pac connections.

 

[oskala]

Good post, but not helpful in this instance, as my starter is spinning. Slowly, and after 3 revolutions stops and the headlights go dim. I immediatly try again and again, and randomly it will spin its ass off

I know on my '09 Busa that there is a headlight cut-out feature. Does anyone know if Jeff's '03 has this same feature? Next to the starter the headlights draw the most amps. And if your Batt. is suspect in any way the extra amp draw from the headlights will be competing with the starter for amps which will cause slow starter operation. Low amps are very bad for the starter! I don't think this is your problem Jeff but it's definitely not helping. Jeff it wouldn't hurt to find out if your bike has this feature and if possibly it's not working right? On the new HD's I work on I usually cut the headlight ignition jumper wire so that the headlights don't compete with the starter. On an HD there is a light option on the ignition switch so cutting the jumper wire doesn't hurt anything unless my customer forgets to turn his ignition switch to the light position.

 

[Viperam]

I'm starting to think it's the starter also. When it's warm either from electricity flowing through it or from engine heat a bad starter will draw mega amps and kill the stored energy in your Batt.. I don't have a manual but 14.7 volts sounds a little high to me for a 12 volt system? If your bike is over charging it will quickly cook your Batt.!

Anyone know the exact upper limit charging voltage for this bike (or any 12 volt system)?

You mentioned "grease" when you cleaned your wires and connections. Are you talking about Dilectric grease or regular grease?

And finally when you checked your Batt's charging system you were checking the retifier/regulator.

What I would do next is get an amp meter and run it in series with the starter and see how many amps the starter is drawing when it's both cold and hot. You may have two problems, one with the starters winding and also a bad rectifier which is over charging your Batt..

I drove it home during lunch. 7 minute ride. Before i left the battery was 13.4 volts while running it was 14.3

When i got home it wouldnt start back up. Voltage sitting was 12.5 and when i hit the starter it lugged and voltage went down to 8.5.

I drove the truck back to work, but when i get home im going to check the voltage after its been sitting for a while and see if it floats back up.

I was checking the voltage at the battery and not the rectifier.

I need to know how to check the rectifier, what wires to get the voltage and resistance readings, and what those readings are supposed to be.

It also seems like the stator may be overcharging. But i dont know what the AC voltage is supposed to be comming from it and i dont know what the resistance is supposed to be on the 3 coils.

Anyone have these specifications?