I support Islam!!

[mikeyusf]

wait, wait wait wait wait!!! slow down right now.........


How did you feel when you read that topic?


Were you angry? were you ready to rage? were you furious? confused?


I was thinking the other day about how the president says "we as a country support islam and all muslims in the world", but as a country do we truly support islam?
If went in front of a marine base and held up a sign saying "I support my islam brothers", how would that be percieved?

Disclaimer: This is not a pro-islam thread by any means. This is a thread to explore the deep rooted prejudices inside all of us. Does the united states truly support islam?

I ask this question because considering the rest of the world is being fed images like these-

http://www.marchforjustice.com/id191.htm

From an american perspective-

I'll be the first to say that the word "islam" and "muslim" brings up images of hijacked airplanes, lunatics running around with AK-47's, suicide bombings, vicious terrorism, and of course 9/11. I'm an honest man who can deal with his prejudices.

this is a deep rooted, prejudice that has been conditioned into me by my religion, my country, and the media.

If we are supposed to win the hearts of the Iraqi people and the nation of islam, how can we do it if we as a whole have these prejudices?

This thread is simply a difference in perspective, and please bear with me. We see them one way, they look at the US totally different. We see them as killers, they see us as killers.

My fear is that this war, if done improperly, can start a vicious US vs Islam war, similar to the Israel vs Palestein war. Unless the US as a whole can show the entire Islam world that we support Islam and we care about the Islamic faith.

Can the US succeed in doing this? Give your opinion

Mike

[Odyssey]

Those are pretty graphic pics mike, should of gave warning...

Its War, the only objective is to win. Deep rooted prejudice is part 90% of this countries history. Prejudice will continue as long as we divide ourselves by race and nationality. When a something bad happens or conditions are bad, people look for a cause, a scapegoat. During 9/11 many taxi cabs were without drivers because the drivers were in fear of their lives. In my hometown many business' owned by people from the middle east were vandilized.

Right now i live in canada and there are many people from all over the world here. Some people from iraq support Bush and are glad that the US is trying to remove Saddam.

That website if obviously a peace activist site, but i think they should show both sides by showing what saddam has done to poeple.

[Thinker62]

Clearly this is propaganda, and we should not be confused by it or by the pro-war propaganda either. War is a dirty business. People get killed. What cracks me up is that in our civilized world, some have dared to try to make rules about war and killing people. Some targets are acceptable and some aren't...ha! I tell you what, send a bunch of foreign troops down main street USA, and the Geneva Convention will be thrown out of the window. Men woman and children will fight with whatever they have. If the US had to use biological, chemical, or nuclear weapons to keep from being defeated and taken over, we would. In order to protect my family, you had better believe I would!

Anyway, I digress, but it just cracks me up. When it is all done, both sides will be able to show dramatic photos supporting how bad the other side is. Well, I say it is war...people are going to die.

As far as Islam, it is difficult to seperate church and state when looking at the Middle East, but Islam is a religion, not a political movement. I have read much of the Qoran...it is strangely similar to the Bible. Funny, I can't find any promotion of dictatorships, democracy, communism, or socialism in either of them. Maybe I can find that stuff in the Tora. (Apologies for my spelling).

[Darkeyce]

You know, if you look back over history you find that an alarming numeber of the conflicts have been started over theological beliefs. Only recently have confilcts been initiated over "money". In this case it's oil.

For all time the rallying cry of "god/allah/jehovah is on our side, we will be victorious" has been used to drive troops.

This time it's a little different...Only Saddam can use that.

[Odyssey]

Most of the conflict in the world is due to religion. Look at what was said about that guy who wanted the anthem changed, people called him and threatened him and his family. India and pakistan, palistine and isreal, WW2!

What would most people do if someone went up to them and told them there is no god and the bible is wrong? Or someone who is christian went up to a muslim and told them the way they practice their religion is wrong. People get angry, to put it lightly. People fight for what they believe, because what they believe is what is right.

There will NEVER be peace until everyone is exactly the same.

There is a song called "Silent Warrior" by Enigma, its a song that i like but it says alot about how people USE religion.

[Big O]

Mikey, I think you should have put a Warning on the pics site.

When I think of Islam, I think of religion, I picture thousands of people who have made the pilgrimage to Mecca. I think of Mohammed Ali.
We all have preconcieved notions about anyone who is different than we are. It's good that you can deal with your prejudices, now, can you overcome them?

[nihilist]

First of all, what religion says it's ok to kill one another? None, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, it's all the same. The problem isn't in the belief it's in the extremist beliefs. This war isn't over oil, that's a joke, if it were, we would be occupying Kuwait as the 51st state. This is called damage control. When your bike gets a nail in the tire do you remove it or wait and hope it doesn't let go at 180? Saddam and Bin Laden represent that nail. People have been using religion to their personal effects since the begining of history. I have been brought up Catholic my whole life, and upon understanding the hipocrasy of the religious system I have denounced my faith and have gone as far as having "NIHILIST" tattooed across my back, hence the name. Now many of you may think I'm an extremist in my own right but I don't use my belief as a crutch to justify my actions. I don't need to be told what's right and what's wrong and my manorism towards other human beings is respectful. Sorry for the rant but topics like are important to me, with that said, lets' ride!

[nihilist]

By the way, if you think those pictures are bad, you should have had to deal with 8 months of recovery I endured at Ground Zero. I couldn't eat a piece of meat with a bone in it for months because of the imagery it stirred up. We weren't at war, they are. If the Iraqi government is so concerned with it's citizens then it shouldn't keep killing the ones who are trying to leave.

[mikeyusf]

I respect everyone's beliefs and points of view, but this is not what this topic is about.

please, lets get back on track....

This is a deep topic, this topic is only for those who are willing to go deep within their own prejudices and learn something about themselves. This is not a topic to rant....

Our president has gone on global television and stated many times that "The american people support islam and the american people support muslims as a whole"

This war against Iraq must do 2 very important things to be considered a success-

1) Rid Iraq of the Saddam Hussein regime, and set up a democratic system of government, (which has NEVER been done in a muslim country)

2) Demonstrate to the entire muslim world that the US does support and respect islam, and that we are NOT trying to create a holy war against the 400 million members of Islam

Here is my point, it's very simple-

We can rid Iraq of Saddam Hussein using our military to protect our own country against attacks of terrorism..

but do we truly love the islam religion enough to put in the money, hard work, and years upon years of dedication by the american people to do what has NEVER been done in a arab/muslim country before....

give a country a democratic government like we have here

Do we love islam enough to do this?

I hope we do. Because the other 19/20th's of the world is watching, and if we dont achieve what we are telling everyone we can achieve, god help us.

If we do not achieve this, we will truly be engulfed in an Islamic Jihad, where the entire islamic, muslim and arab world will be united against us.

This isnt about the war, it's about what we need to do after the war

Do we truly love islam? I'll be the first to say no, we dont

Mike

[RonUSMC]

Everyone deserves freedom Mike.


Anything would be better than that shamble they call a government now. They have tried to revolt several times, but the oil money keeps Saddam rich with weapons and he can keep them down.

[mikeyusf]

RonUSMC, you are right, every soul on earth deserves freedom, it's a god given right. But that is not the question, but you are close....

Q1) Do you think the United States population loves and supports islam enough to dedicate billions of dollars, thousands of american lives, and years of hard work to give islamic countries a democratic government like ours?

Q2) Or are we going to invade Iraq, do enough damage to dilute the threat to the US, and leave like we did in 1991?

The answers to these questions will determine our future as a world leader and will have a huge impact on the security of the US in general.

Dont get off track with other comments and arguements, answer these questions or dont post here

Mike

[mikeyusf]

here are my answers to these questions-

A1) No we dont

A2) Yes, we are going to dillute Iraq's capabilities to strike the US, run out of money and support, and leave like we did in 1991, with either Saddam still in power, or leave the country in civil war, with it split between the 3 major parties residing there

reason? No islamic state/country has EVER had a successful democratic government, where the citizens were "free"

To set up a truly democratic government like in the US in an Islamic country is impossible, will never work, a waste of time, and simply a joke. It will not happen in our lifetimes, thats for sure. But we can sure try our hardest, y not

just my 2 cents

Mike

[Racer 222]

Mikey,
Yes I believe the President when he says that we support Islam.
No we won't give the Iraqi people a system of government like ours. We will give them a chance to chose! That is the freedom that they will have.
3 Combat tours have all been in support of Muslim Nations. I think we support the people.
Religion in our country is not like the rest of the world. We separate ourselves along Racial and economic lines the rest of the world starts with religion. We were founded on religious tolerance.

Marc "Howlin Mad"

Stirring the pot again...
So are you bringing your "rich boy" butt to Laguna Seca or what?

[mikeyusf]

good point

"Religion in our country is not like the rest of the world. We separate ourselves along Racial and economic lines the rest of the world starts with religion. We were founded on religious tolerance."

thats a real good point, never thought of it like that. I wish we could get that message out to the world.

Sup Marc, yea I'm going to try to get out there. The problem is this, 1) the weather here in tampa has been just incredible, I've been putting over 1000 miles a week on my bike 2) how do I get my bike to california to ride?

I'm either going to mail it, or buy one in california and leave it in storage (it's happened before, lol)


My sister in California right now going to school at an advertising school, I've been wanting to take a vacation out there. Do some paintballing, riding, and some sight seeing. Florida doesnt have ****, just long straight roads with speed traps at the end of them, I want to do some mountain riding

yea I think I'm going to try for the end of summer, we'll see what happens.

Mike

[Racer 222]

Mikey,
Get the bike and leave it at my house! I will take care of it!! I am originally from Miami so I know what you mean about the straight roads.
Hope you make it out! Your the only rich friend that I have

Take care

Marc "Howlin Mad"

[mikeyusf]

oh d00d you're from miami? omg are we hooked up there are what!

anytime you come back to miami give me a shout. I got friends who own limosine companies, and I'm connected with almost every club in that city, liquid, level, space, solid gold, I cant even think of all the places we can get VIP'd into



Mike

[RonUSMC]

Q1) Do you think the United States population loves and supports islam enough to dedicate billions of dollars, thousands of american lives, and years of hard work to give islamic countries a democratic government like ours?

Q2) Or are we going to invade Iraq, do enough damage to dilute the threat to the US, and leave like we did in 1991? [/quote]

1. Giving the country freedom is an alterior benefit of taking Saddam out of power which is the main goal. As a responsible nation, we can't just take him out of control and leave. We are going to help them establish a government, and the UN is going help in that aspect.

2. Bush reinstates his promise every few days. There is no outcome other than taking Saddam out of power. That is it. We will take him out of power and help them cope.

[busahigg]

Islam and Christianity have so many similarities that it's not even funny. *It's almost scary how the Koran and the Holy Bible coincide. *Many of the stories are even the same, just different names and places. *

Religion has been used as a "tool" since the beginning of time. *Check this out:

The term and concept of the Holy Trinity was adopted in the year of 325 A.D. at a Religous Council held in the city of Nicea in the Roman Province of Bithyania, a country in Asia Minor. *The council was convened at the request of Constantine, the Emperor of Rome. *History tells us that 318 bishops were present at the convention and through an elected process, the divinity of Jesus Christ was established. *According to some reports, 313 of the 318 bishops present voted in favor of this "falsehood". *
Ata-ur-Rahim writes, "That this historic decision was based first as much on political expediency as on faulty reasoning of philosophy, is shown by the part played by COnstantine, the pagan Emperor of Rome, who presided over the council of Nicene. *By remodeling CHristianity, he hoped to gain the Church's support and, at the same time, end the confusion which had arisen within it....which was the source of yet more conflict within his Empire.

This is an excerpt taken from Al-Islam, Christianity and Freemasonry, written by Mustafa El-Amin. *

Bush is an idiot! *He thinks he is really the only leader of the free world. *Leaders like him are the reason true Democracy will not be allowed to work. *The United Nations will not be allowed to work. *So he goes on his own Holy Crusade and cleans up Saddam's regime.....he did the same in Afghanistan. *Don't get me wrong.....the terrorists that hit the twin towers should pay. *
However, atrocities like that happen every day in the "Middle" East and no one cares. *Not us. *Don't worry about it. *But as soon as one of them threaten us with even the possibility of having a weapon that could touch us.....kick their ass. *Now I'm not naive, I'm sure Saddam has weapons of mass destruction and definitely has Bio weapons. *But we are not the world police force. *
Lastly,
I think that the teachings of Islam can be taken too literally and are at many times are twisted to suit the needs of the teachers, much as Christianity was twisted when King James wrote his "version". *I do not think that every Muslim, or follower of Islam is a terrorist though. *This conflict has created much tension in the U.S., that I think will take forever to mend. *I hope this crap ends soon and with the least amount of trouble possible.

Oh yeah.....and Mike was right. *%#^* Cheney's company Halliburton (Brown and Root for all you military guys) WILL get the biggest part of the contract to rebuild Iraq. *What a crock of ****! *This whole detestable crap is over money.....OIL and MONEY. *Sounds liek some crap Napoleon would pull.....Bush is well on his way towards being one of the all time biggest a$$holes in the history of the world.

[nihilist]

I think you guys are confusing many different agendas. First of all the military action in Kuwait was due to Iraq invading an ally of the US. Now were there monitary issues involved? of course but so what? It wasn't about Islam or religious persecution. Personally I could care less if every Arab killed each other as long as it was on their soil. Saddam desperatly needs to make the war in Iraq a holy war to have any chance of saving his own ass. These people live in poverty while saddam and his regime build countless palaces. I don't get it, now they have a chance to better themselves and they are fighting it? Sounds more like they are too scared to oppose the ruling faction. Now will companies directly linked to government members make a ton of money rebuilding Iraq? Hell yeah, wake up they've been doing it since the Mayflower came ashore. This is nothing new, and I can live with that so long as I'm able to enjoy the great opportunities and privleges this country offers. The bottom line is that they were here first, so they call the shots. Look on the dollar bill in your pocket, see the pyramid with the eye on top, now read the bottom " NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM" translated " New World Order" These people call the shots whether you like it or not. If any Muslim or Islamic person actually believes that the US is against them then so be it. Personally if they are true believers they should be outraged at the wave of suicide bombings and terrorism and put a stop to it, but like anything else, if it advances their cause they're ok with it. I can only speak for myself, I have my own opinions, and personally at this stage of the game I really only care about the people close to me, and my ability to live out my life as happy as possible, and if anybody or anything threatens that then you better believe I'm gonna do harm to them.

[MET]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (mikeyusf @ April 01 2003,5:04)]oh d00d you're from miami? omg are we hooked up there are what!

anytime you come back to miami give me a shout. I got friends who own limosine companies, and I'm connected with almost every club in that city, liquid, level, space, solid gold, I cant even think of all the places we can get VIP'd into



Mike

Now you tell me. I am there at least once a month in Nov. Dec. Jan. Feb. March, and sometimes for a week or 2 at a time.