All future intercooled bikes will have this for sure!

[2wicked]

Originally Posted by sportbikeryder

Intake temperatures drop considerable, from high 300's to a bit over 400 degrees F in teh high 20's - low 30's psi down to the low to mid 200's.

Power did not increase in any noticable amount.

As mentioned, the way water / alcohol injection works is that the injected fluid removes heat energy from the system theough the phase change from a liquid to a gas. The issue is that water can expand up to 1700 times its volume when this phase change occurs. The expansion of the steam takes up the volume in teh intake that would be filled with free oxygen. The stem does not burn or add additional oxygen to the combustion. Goes in as steam and out as steam.

Typically water injection is used as an antiddetonation agent. One problem with it is if you tune for it, and then run out of water or a jet gets clogged or some other failure, you will likely melt the motor.

John

Water injection does work to prevent detonation, but I kind of think temp drops like that would be really hard to achieve, where is the heat going? If you have 400 degree temps, add 50 degree water, the water and steam absorb the heat, but it is still in the charge air, our research shows 50 degree temp drops with water injection, nothing higher, I would venture to say if you are seeing higher temp drops with water injection it will be due to the water hitting the sensor, and not due to actual temp drops in the charge air.

Richard

[tommybusa]

awesome info!!!!

[ogre]

you know when you have alcohol on your skin, and it feels really cold? it's using heat energy from your body to evaporate. that's what happens inside the intake stream when you inject water and methanol. it also raises octane in the cylinder. you won't gain power with it until you adjust ignition timing/boost to take advantage of the additional octane.

[GPW]

Originally Posted by ogre

you know when you have alcohol on your skin, and it feels really cold? it's using heat energy from your body to evaporate. that's what happens inside the intake stream when you inject water and methanol. it also raises octane in the cylinder. you won't gain power with it until you adjust ignition timing/boost to take advantage of the additional octane.

I love timing so this will be cool!

[BusaWizard]

[Mr Bogus]

Originally Posted by ogre

you know when you have alcohol on your skin, and it feels really cold? it's using heat energy from your body to evaporate. that's what happens inside the intake stream when you inject water and methanol. it also raises octane in the cylinder. you won't gain power with it until you adjust ignition timing/boost to take advantage of the additional octane.

that really is not true...

Water/alcohol does a number of things.. The cooling effect (liquid to gas) creates a denser cooler aircharge allowing more molecules into the same space at the same boost levels.. Waste gates see boost level only, not air density.. you now have more product in the same area

Expansion of water also adds power. Burning fuel is under 800-1 when it burns.. when water is converted to steam it is closer to 1500-1 (and is why it is expressly forbidden by many racing bodies as an additive to alcohol or even as an injected item.. this additional expansion under combustion temps gives the motor more power (around 10% when right on the numbers)

Octane: Alcohol is I think around 110 octane? so yes there is an octane boost but I am not sure if this is even relevant when it is mixed with water (no longer really flammable on its own so what would the octane really be? Octane= fuels ability to resist ignition)

Timing: yes you can dump some more mag in a motor with water injection to even further improve power..
however, at RPM this is negligible and you might have a problem proving it..

you can put a motor on a dyno, spool it up to max power, stabilize and then reach over, grab the timing and drag it back 10 degrees and the motor wont even know it... We ran this testing on a few 2000hp plus motors as well as some N/A 1000hp motors... was most interesting..

our nitro motors? you could knock the magneto off the engine after it was at speed, was not going to shut off till you pull the fuel shutoff.. 6000+ ponies and who needs spark....

[MET]

It helps to increase the boost but is not a cure. I ran windshield fluid in my Aquamist for years. I kept bottles in the trunk hump. It allowed 2 more lbs of boost safely.

[GPW]

For some like myself, two more pounds of boost is 28 HP...now see my need.

[sportbikeryder]

Originally Posted by GPW

For some like myself, two more pounds of boost is 28 HP...now see my need.

The problem is that you will not see the same increase that you see now due to the displacement of the available air in the intake charge.

[2wicked]

Originally Posted by ogre

you know when you have alcohol on your skin, and it feels really cold? it's using heat energy from your body to evaporate. that's what happens inside the intake stream when you inject water and methanol. it also raises octane in the cylinder. you won't gain power with it until you adjust ignition timing/boost to take advantage of the additional octane.

You are correct about alcohol on your skin, it feels cold because it evaporates and the surrounding air feels very cool, although it does not quite work the same in a confined space such as a charge tube, as the evaporation is not replaced with cool surrounding air, the air is already hot. I am not saying the alcohol does not work, because it does work to some degree, but if someone thinks alcohol injection can work as well as an intercooler, they have some homework ahead of themselves.

Richard

[ogre]

Originally Posted by Mr Bogus

that really is not true...

Water/alcohol does a number of things.. The cooling effect (liquid to gas) creates a denser cooler aircharge allowing more molecules into the same space at the same boost levels.. Waste gates see boost level only, not air density.. you now have more product in the same area

Expansion of water also adds power. Burning fuel is under 800-1 when it burns.. when water is converted to steam it is closer to 1500-1 (and is why it is expressly forbidden by many racing bodies as an additive to alcohol or even as an injected item.. this additional expansion under combustion temps gives the motor more power (around 10% when right on the numbers)

Octane: Alcohol is I think around 110 octane? so yes there is an octane boost but I am not sure if this is even relevant when it is mixed with water (no longer really flammable on its own so what would the octane really be? Octane= fuels ability to resist ignition)

Timing: yes you can dump some more mag in a motor with water injection to even further improve power..
however, at RPM this is negligible and you might have a problem proving it..

you can put a motor on a dyno, spool it up to max power, stabilize and then reach over, grab the timing and drag it back 10 degrees and the motor wont even know it... We ran this testing on a few 2000hp plus motors as well as some N/A 1000hp motors... was most interesting..

our nitro motors? you could knock the magneto off the engine after it was at speed, was not going to shut off till you pull the fuel shutoff.. 6000+ ponies and who needs spark....

i tried to explain it in laymans terms man. and it turbo'd STREETCAR applications, it's called race gas boost and timing with 93 octane. or if you have a big laggy turbo, tune it for 93 off the alky hall, and run 87 octane with meth injection. my buddy howard was running a built motor in his srt-4, head work, cams, a holset HX40, and an aem standalone running his meth injection. 30 psi, daily driven with methanol and pump gas. around 600 hp at the wheels.

[Mr. Anderson]

just remember, methanol is VERY corrosive to aluminum parts! keep that in mind if you don't plan on tearing your engine down on a normal basis for inspection.