Newbie To Mods

Why would anyone want to put a Power Commander to Hayabusa when you can directly adjust everything from Suzuki engine ECU?
 
Because not all tuners know how to dyno tune with Ecu Editor, and most that can say that it's still easier for them to tune the air/fuel with a Power Commander. They still flash the ecu also.
 
I spend way more time over on ZX-14ninjaforums than here lately but here's what i have been learning about flash v modules. I'm sure much of it all applies to the busa same as the 14.

Flash is EVERYthing your ECU is programmed to control. Mainly we are talking flies, fueling and perhaps timing. There are more functions like Top speed limiter, rev limit, cooling fans.....etc. When you are talking engine tuning, its mainly AFR, Timing and Flies.

First off, flies. There are secondary flies that restrict air intake and do not permit full power at lower rpm. The secondaries are controlled by the ECU. Then there are the primary flies that are the same thing as the secondary flappers but the primaries are controlled by you. You would like to have no secondary flies but you cannot remove secondary flies from a busa and have it run optimally. I've heard of people doing it but the word was that the bike will run best with flies in and flash to change what rpm/gear the flies open. I'm still unclear why you cannot simply take the flies right out and have full control of the throttle with the primaries but I'm just recalling what i was told some years back. You have to tune flies and that means flash. There is no module to tune flies that I'm aware of. Once flashed, the ECU encoding is changed from Suzuki encoding to Woolich encoding forever. You can flash back to stock values but it will be in Woolich language. Your warranty is voided. You can get a different ECU that has not been flashed to solve that problem.

Next AFR. Ever see a fuel table? It is a grid with cross referencing boxes for rpm and throttle position. You have a number in each box (or "cell" as they are commonly referred to). This number indicates the amount of fuel to be delivered at X rpm and Y throttle position. So when you flash, you change the fuel numbers programmed in the ECU to optimize the power output of the engine. The kind of exhaust and possibly other mods may have a significant effect on your fueling requirements. Your engine is also one of a kind. It has unique fueling requirements that are a little different than every other busa engine in the world. The elevation you ride at has an impact on the fueling requirements (unless the busa has an o2 sensor and I think it does but only on the stock exhaust). So you see, you can send your ECU in and have it flashed but it will be a flash for the tuners busa with the tuners mods, not your busa. A good tuner will look for AFR mapping that will match your bike/mods as closely as possible. However, if you want the flash that's best for your bike, you have to bring your whole bike in and have a custom tune done on a dyno. You can use modules to adjust the stock values or flash that custom tune to your ECU. Again, the ECU cannot be returned to stock format. If you want stock AFR again, you can have it but it will have to be reflashed in Woolich format or you use modules to adjust the flash to stock (which sounds downright confusing to me).

Last, ignition timing. Timing is controlled through a very similar table as the AFR is. Each cell has a number that tells the spark plugs when to fire in relationship to the position of the piston on the compression stroke. The value in the cell would dictate X° crankshaft rotation at Y rpm and Z tp. The guy I talk to seems to leave the ignition timing at stock values in the ECU and control timing via an ignition control module such as the SB6 or DynoJet Ignition Module. There are no more SB6s out there. The DJ module will work with the PCV but it will not work with a Bazzaz fuel module. SO we are stuck if we have Bazzaz fueling. If you want to play with timing, you REALLY better ask a lot of questions from people you trust, know what you're doing and don't mess up or it could very well be bye-bye busa. Sorry, I can't advise on that as I am just getting into all of this self tuning business myself.

So if you have a PCV, you have taken the correct first step. You can control your fueling just as well as a flash would have but you will not alter your ECU one bit. You can try different fuel maps and see what works best. Now add DJ AutoTune-200 and POD 300. You got the world by the ass, baby! ....if you are willing to hold the throttle WOT and top out in 5th or 6th gear and then let go to 0% tp, you can do everything a tuner would do with AFR on the dyno. Last, add the Ignition Module V and now you have control over timing, just be careful about what you do with it.

Only thing not addressed is the flies, rev limiter, cooling fans and whatever else the flash does. You want that don't you? Well, you will have to flash then. Keep the modules though. Remember, the flash is a flash for the tuners busa, not your busa. Your knowledge of self tuning will allow you to adjust the flash so it is perfect. There is nothing inherently better about a flash. Don't buy that BS about the signal needing to travel a longer distance by interfacing with modules. We're talking the speed of light through those wires. two feet means zip.

.....or just get a flash and call it a day. All depends on how much time and $$$ you want to spend on this crap. You could go all the way to getting your own Woolich software. Buy your own dyno! LOL

Oh, BTW....you made the right first choice on the bike too. The busa is still unbeaten in my book. Watch out for the Gen3 ZX-14RR when we get it some day. Hope they update the busa to match or beat it. I'll buy a new bike for sure.


Daron
 
To sum all that up, I think you have to flash to get control of those flies and a few other ECU functions that are very cool. Even so, you can't go wrong by getting the whole setup of modules just we used to do before flash technology. If you're plug and play, A) just get a highly recomended flash and leave well enough alone--$300. B) get a custom tune/flash--$500-$600 I would think. All the DJ electronics are about $1100. Woolich software about 2 grand.
 
I don't think that any of the sponsors here that offer flashing mess with the A/F ratios they just remove the limiters, adjust the cooling fan, turn off pair , and so on. I have not even heard of one changing A/F on the bench. I also did not know that Woolich or ECU editor would permanently mess up my computer. Guess I made the wrong choice by not adding extra equipment to my bike. Guess I got lucky because it runs great now.
 
I don't think that any of the sponsors here that offer flashing mess with the A/F ratios they just remove the limiters, adjust the cooling fan, turn off pair , and so on. I have not even heard of one changing A/F on the bench. I also did not know that Woolich or ECU editor would permanently mess up my computer. Guess I made the wrong choice by not adding extra equipment to my bike. Guess I got lucky because it runs great now.

I'm not saying "don't flash." Just saying, you need the same electronic equipment that has been used for the last 15-20 years to have perfect AFR and optimum timing. Perfect AFR is essentially what engine tuning IS. No one puts a bike on a dyno to do any of the things you mentioned that are addressed by your flash. If they make your bike run better without changing the AFR and timing, that's awesome. Heck mine blows my mind without a flash. If you want all the power your bike has, you have to address flies, AFR and timing. The rest is all extras. Far as I'm concerned, I'd rather not have AFR and timing changed by flash. There's no catchall solution to that. You have to custom tune or at least have the option of trading maps like we did back in 2006. Ask your tuner and I'm sure he will tell you the same. If there is any tuner who DOES offer to flash his AFR map, he may want you to believe his map is the best choice for every busa...but that simply aint so. The ZX-14 tuners I have known or known of do flash AFR but the most reputable has told me you still need to fine tune it and if you-re running boost or NOS---DO NOT use there flashed AFR or timing maps.

Your ECU is not messed up, it's just reformatted. Makes no difference at all unless you have a warranty issue. This brings up another poit about flashing. Some Kawasaki ECUs have been frozen due to flashing. It's just a few but the only remedy is a new ECU. IDK if busa ECUs carry the same hazard.
 
My bike was dyno tuned using ECU editor. Did they have to reformat for that program or just the Woolich? I have not done any mods other that exhaust, air filter, and stacks. Will there be a reason that I will need to trade maps with other members?
 
When you use Woolich, the flash is coded such that the ECU can only be accessed via Woolich software using the same user account. This means ECU Editor cannot be used at all, even to check engine data. You CAN erase the ECU with Woolich using the original Log Box and user account, and then go back to ECU Editor and the old flash box and flash your ECU back to normal. Sure, if the dealer sees the extra wires added to the factory harness they could void your warranty, but let's face it, the one year warranty is not a big deal. If the flashes are done on the bench there are no jumper wires as evidence.

I also don't subscribe to the theory that every bike is unique and you have to have your bike dyno-tuned to get it right. Someone else's map with similar mods will likely be very close to what you need. If you changed exhaust certainly the other quality map will be closer to perfect than the stock map. I have used a flash map that was created two states away on someone else's stock motor bike with the same exhaust on a dyno. I have datalogged this on the track and found it wasn't perfect, so I adjusted it a bit and got no improvement in et's. I changed to a sidewinder and the map still works for me. After lots of playing around I concluded that 0.2:1 difference in afr doesn't really matter, as long as you aren't way off of nominal. Ultimately I went back to the map as I received it and have run it for years. Right now I have it in 4 bikes and they all perform as expected. I have been 8.63 @ 157 on pump gas, stock motor with this tune in my 08.

The advantage of the piggyback systems is they are generally quicker to use. Flashing takes 5 minutes once you hit the "start flash" button. The disadvantage of the piggyback systems is you still need to flash for some features, such as injector balancing, secondary throttle control, and other misc things.
 
I see. So ECU Editor is the hot ticket for flashing busas. I guess if you know what fuel maps work for you, you could flash it. I know of one 14R owner who had a stock ECU and a flashed ECU. The stock was faster to top speed. He made multiple before and after runs and filmed them. The only explanation I could think of was that the AFR was not right for his bike/mods/elevation. ...or it was not a good map. A lot of people sure bought it though and said they loved it.
 
ECU Editor works well for what it does and is a more open platform. Woolich adds features (including autotune) but has more rules of use. I use both to do everything I want as neither can do everything. ECU Editor is no longer being updated and Woolich is.

It's hard to say why the 14R owner had that experience. It could have been the map wasn't suited to his combination, his testing was bad, or the flash didn't work quite right. I've had cases where I flash and it doesn't work well, then I reflash the same map and it works right.
 
Can anyone recommend a good place to do a flash in the Pittsburgh area? I'm willing to travel couple hours away from Pittsburgh. Just looking for a good reputable place.
 
I'm not looking to chase HP, but I want better exhaust sound, and if I'm doing that, I'm gonna do the rest of the job properly.
 
I'm not looking to chase HP, but I want better exhaust sound, and if I'm doing that, I'm gonna do the rest of the job properly.
My mods are ECU flash, shorty pipes,+2 rear sprocket, r1 Throttle tube, Speedo healer and i'm happy.
 
:lol: That's how it all starts. "I am only going to make a few small changes then I am happy." Thousands of dollars later your still sayingthe same thing.
I do want the 1441 kit but some say its good some say its not street able. Plus finding a installer in the NJ,NY,PA,DE area that won't cost me a arm and a leg.
 
I do want the 1441 kit but some say its good some say its not street able. Plus finding a installer in the NJ,NY,PA,DE area that won't cost me a arm and a leg.

You're always on here with things you're modifying or repairing.
Why not build your own 1441?
If you need some tools you don't have, use the labor money on them.
Truck or trailer it for a dyno tune.
A long day trip to Powerhouse.
Buy your parts from him, and get his advice, and the forum's.
Once someone reputable supplies the right parts combination, it takes out the guesswork.
The rest is basic assembly.
 
I just never built a motor that's all. I'm sure i could do it. Just looking for right combination for a daily driver.
Some good advice. Thanks
 
Wait is $3700 200+ Rwhp or 220+ Rwhp increase from carpenter?
What is a rwhp estimate on a ported head only from carpenter ?
This is with a full brocks pipe and dyno tune I'm asking about above.
 
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