good clutch for a turbo build?

[GNBRETT]

yea I'm aware the design is not new. it works best with an AMS 1000/2000 which is the primary reason ppl buy which is why Seb bought the rights to it so he cud incorporate his AMS into it. again, Seb designed it to work with the AMS period. not off the plenum.

u also seem to run ur WG off manifold pressure vs. Co2. sure it can be done but its not the most efficient and useful way of doing it. u primarily do that cause u don't think a boost controller is useful on the street and therefore run a very large spring. I disagree and think a BC is extremely useful on the street and therefore run a smaller spring so I can control boost and keep the front end down and or not blow the tires off.

and not to mention if ur someone who likes to street ride their bike AND take it to the track the large spring becomes useless cause u now can't use ur BC to control boost off the line unless u think running 12-15 lbs of boost with watever spring ur running off the line is wise?

so yes there are many ways to set things up to run and just cause u can set one up a particular way doesn't mean you shud.

and yea the part melted cause it was an inferior just like it has on numerous PST bikes which is why many of them don't run Wossner rods anymore. nothing went lean, fuel pump was fine and it was on C16 at 17 lbs of boost with proper A/F ratio. so tune wise it was spot on. reliability wise it failed period. u can speculate all u want but there is no reason a rod shud fail at 17 lbs of Boost on C16 wen everything else was spot on. everything else was collateral damage.

Brett,

The NLR boost compensated clutch is the exact same thing as the Anderson boost compensated clutches. NLR bought the rights to it. That clutch was on the market BEFORE the AMS1000 was even on the market. Not sure how you think that it was designed for use with the boost controller. We've used and sold many NLR boost clutches on bikes that didn't use a controller to run it. 1 psi of boost adds something crazy like 600 pounds of pressure plate force added to the clutch, on top of the static spring pressure. The concept is simple, the more boost, the mute pressure plate pressure.

And far as parts melting like you talked about, parts don't melt because of being inferior. Parts melt because of bad tunes, inadequate octane for boost, or a fuel pump, or injector failure causing to go lean. Now if you said your ring lands cracked, or broke a rod, then yeah I'd stay away from wossner.

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

yea I'm aware the design is not new. it works best with an AMS 1000/2000 which is the primary reason ppl buy which is why Seb bought the rights to it so he cud incorporate his AMS into it. again, Seb designed it to work with the AMS period. not off the plenum.

Seb didn't design it, anderson did. Period....

u also seem to run ur WG off manifold pressure vs. Co2. sure it can be done but its not the most efficient and useful way of doing it. u primarily do that cause u don't think a boost controller is useful on the street and therefore run a very large spring. I disagree and think a BC is extremely useful on the street and therefore run a smaller spring so I can control boost and keep the front end down and or not blow the tires off.

yeah that's pretty much what boost control is for. I, on my personal bike ran big springs, but thats my preference. And I could make it work. On any of my customers bikes they are always set off c02 or nitrous.

and not to mention if ur someone who likes to street ride their bike AND take it to the track the large spring becomes useless cause u now can't use ur BC to control boost off the line unless u think running 12-15 lbs of boost with watever spring ur running off the line is wise?

see above.

so yes there are many ways to set things up to run and just cause u can set one up a particular way doesn't mean you shud.

So use it like it was originally designed to be used on manifold pressure... Does work at the strip for delaying pressure to let the clutch slip at the strip when used with an ams.

and yea the part melted cause it was an inferior just like it has on numerous PST bikes which is why many of them don't run Wossner rods anymore. nothing went lean, fuel pump was fine and it was on C16 at 17 lbs of boost with proper A/F ratio. so tune wise it was spot on. reliability wise it failed period. u can speculate all u want but there is no reason a rod shud fail at 17 lbs of Boost on C16 wen everything else was spot on. everything else was collateral damage.

Wossners or Pistons in general just don't melt for no good reason.

 

[rustyred79]

It's off the main topic but I would like to see the pictures of the melted rods. I have not seen rods melt before so I think it would be kinda cool to see.

 

[GNBRETT]

Wossners or Pistons in general just don't melt for no good reason.

nothn melted per say. it twisted right at the rod bolt and subsequently melted from the twisting heat and ruined everything else wen hot melted pieces started flying around in the motor. mechanical failure. man can make. man can break it.

u burned ur own personal bike up either last year or the year before. think u said it was a piston. was there a good reason for it? there is always a reason somthn happened but knowing wat the reason is is sometimes a mystery.

Quote Originally Posted by GNBRETT
I have a set in my motor along with wossner pistons and the rod let go. nothn detonated. don't know wat happen so I'm a little nervous about keeping them.

this was right from Ronnie Mitchell on Psychobike.... "I use to run them but had the same problem you had so went back to crowder rods"

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

Melted and broken are 2 diffrent things. That would of saved a lot of back and forth.

Yeah that was 2 years ago I thought I had burnt a piston in my bike. Was doing a big nasty highway bomber when the tire broke loose and went in the the limiter HARD. Still ran good as I beat on it a few more time before returning to the shop when I saw a watery oil mix dripping on my swing arm from the breather. The catch can was full and it was pushing condensation past and dripping out the breather. Put another 2k hard miles on it before I sold it to one of my customers.

 

[GNBRETT]

well, wen things twist Rob its because they have gotten weak do to heat which makes them softer and susceptible to twisting and therefore failing. detonation is also heat but at 11.5-1 detonation was not the cause. nothn leaned out and the rod bearings were still in good shape except the one rod that twisted at the bottom at the rod bolt.

if it was stronger maybe it wudnt have been subject to twisting cause all rods get hot when spinning at 12000 rpms. and yea shiit happens wen u wanna go fast. were both aware of that and there isn't always a direct cause that can be discovered.

needless to say I will never run Wossner rods again and will never recommend them to anyone. wen a rod goes at 17 psi on C16 with a safe tune there is a problem. maybe it had absolutely nothing to do with the rod itself. maybe it did. but wen top racers over at PB have stopped running them due to the same issue I had which was them failing for no apparent reason they just don't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling and $5000 later tells me to use another set of rods which I will be doing.

not sure on Carrillo or Crowder. seems to be a toss up.

Melted and broken are 2 diffrent things. That would of saved a lot of back and forth.

Yeah that was 2 years ago I thought I had burnt a piston in my bike. Was doing a big nasty highway bomber when the tire broke loose and went in the the limiter HARD. Still ran good as I beat on it a few more time before returning to the shop when I saw a watery oil mix dripping on my swing arm from the breather. The catch can was full and it was pushing condensation past and dripping out the breather. Put another 2k hard miles on it before I sold it to one of my customers.

 

[v8killr4u]

Well here's what happened to my high dollar Carrillo rod....
Round n round she goes... where the rod ends up nobody knows.

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

Guess we can't use carillos now too....

 

[v8killr4u]

Can someone please start a go fund me page. Lol

 

[Got-Busa?]

Can someone please start a go fund me page. Lol

Can you give us more info?

How many miles? How much boost/power? Over rev? What scenario did it let go? Oil? Etc?

 

[v8killr4u]

Can you give us more info?

How many miles? How much boost/power? Over rev? What scenario did it let go? Oil? Etc?

Mirock Real Street Bike; standard Build, Carrillo rods, JE pistons, 22 lbs of boost. Bike didn’t make it to the 60ft. Launched the bike and it shut off like someone turned off the key; we figured a rod bolt backed off or something. Oil leaking from a small fracture in the case at the bottom; no bigger than my pinky finger nail. The Bike sat on the stand for a few months, lifted to tank to start the work and low and behold, a big ass window in the top of the case. Tore the motor down and I never seen nothing blow up like this… We think maybe a wrist pin let go, we still don’t know. Bike wasn’t into any boost; didn’t make it past the 60ft and the tune-up was good on C16.

 

[G-Force]

Back to topic, I used MTC multistage and hated it on the street, not much better at the strip. Constant adjustments and sounds like a ducati rattle. I went with NLR boost compensated clutch and LOVE it!! Light clutch feel, doesn't slip on the street at low RPM like the MTC, and my 60' times got better. Don't need that ugly huge ass cover either, because there is nothing to adjust. My bikes makes 440HP and the boost clutch has never failed. Stock clutch fibers and plates. I'm VERY happy with it.

Don't need AMS or anything else for it BTW, just run line from plenum, that's it.

 

[G-Force]

IRDEATH1340, I've had a couple turbo busa's in the last 10 years, street/strip, and here's a list of what IMHO you need to beef up to make in the 400HP range:

- Rods (I like Crower)
- Pistons (JE)
- APE studs
- Keep factory valves, they are as good or better than anything else, don't waste your money
- Intake cam on exhaust side (or is that vise versa?, can't remember)
- valve springs, titanium retainers (Carpenter or APE)
- adj cam sprockets
- APE shift shafts
- HD output shaft
- Billet clutch hub and basket
- one piece billet clutch cam, or welded
- back cut gears
- 18 tooth front sprocket (or you'll stretch the sh!t out of chains)
- Don't need the HV oil pump, or least I've never had an issue with over 50,000 miles on my stock crank and crower rods
- factory clutch fibers and steels are as good as anything you'll find
- 0.080 base spacer
- cometic head gasket
- Billet shift star (shifts better)
- RCC sprocket case saver (a MUST)
- stainless steel throttle blades (factory ones will bend on FIRST backfire, will idle high)
- windage tray (OK, not a beef up item, but keeps oil where it should be)
- Smiths GBC for gear selection
- ecu hack
- RCC turbo system, Richard knows...

Other helpful items for street/strip:
- Cordona quickshifter Cordona - Race use only! (I love mine!!) unless your running an air shifter, which I think sucks for the street
- ceramic bearing turbo, journal bearing turbos SUCKKKKKK!!!!! bearings go bad if any little thing is not just right.
- memory boost gauge, fuel psi gauge, O2 gauge
- NITRA quick connect air lines (SOOOO easy, light, small. They made my life MUCH better!) Push-to-Connect Pneumatic Fittings (Thermoplastic) Overview
- Helpful hint, spend the money now if you can, it will save you money later

You don't need an AMS1000 either, the AMS500 has 3 levels of boost, spring, stage 1 and stage 2. For strip I run 3psi in stage 1- gear 1, and 25psi in stage 2- gear 2 -> 6. For street its 0 stage 1 and 14psi stage 2, same gears. I'm only 7" over and rarely have wheelie issues at the track. If it does, let off a little! You're building a weekend warrior, you're not going to be consistent anyway with a turbo bike, ha ha!!

 

[IRDEATH1340]

thanks g-force for the info, I'll be sure to keep your input in mind once I start ordering parts and getting things together. Mine is a daily driver now with around 22k, put 10k on it in 4 months. What made you choose a stage 2 over a stage one turbo? If you don't mind I might pm you with some basic questions at some point.

 

[G-Force]

Another comment on boost controllers, you don't have boost off the line unless you have a two step, so using boost from the plenum for the clutch works perfectly at the strip too. Boost will not start until you're out a ways. Too many use too complicated setup. Totally not necessary in a typical street/strip build.

 

[G-Force]

Anytime on the PM. I had a stage 1 with the rising rate fuel regulator but it had its limits. Pretty simple design for a 250 HP build. I thought I wanted that so I didn't lose anything down low with the base spacer, but that was bad information. You'll never notice what little bit might be lost down low. When that engine blew I went with the base spacer and stage 2 setup and really wish I would have from the beginning. It's much easier to tune, more reliable and ready for more HP if you decide to add more, and you will! It's addicting! Besides, you said 350-400HP, which eliminates a stage 1 kit. Just go for the stage 2 kit right off the bat, you'll do it eventually anyway.

One thing I didn't mention above is using an intercooler of some sort. I use an A/A but wish I would have gone with RCC's ultra plenum with water/air. Only reason is that curved A/A intercooler hits the front tire when you strap it down at the track. At the very least use water injection.

 

[IRDEATH1340]

yea water injection is a must, definitely going rcc, I checked out the clutch and it looks good, im just trying to get my parts list figured out. ill be spending a good time overseas and I don't have any bills so all I can do is save money and I want this built strong from the beginning. ive got the money saved to get the turbo now , just was told by a builder to go stage one but his numbers were way low on hp from what I was thinking , I know with beter rods and pistons and a few other internal things can support 350-400 no problem. the thing that was killing me was told he would purchase and install a stage one from rcc and everything and end up at only 260ish hp on pump gas. seems way low from what I had in mindwith water injection and everything done to the engine, now maybe this was hp at the lowest boost, might have to talk to him again.

 

[G-Force]

Unless you put the base spacer in you are limited to 8psi, which at best is 150hp + 80hp = 230HP. If you're putting pistons, rods etc in you're already building a 500+HP bottom end, the secondary set of injectors and controller will not be that much more. WAY more flexible. The stock ecu tuning can be left alone and just tune the secondaries. Now, you said you have a 2008? That's even better. You can use the factory ecu to tune primaries and secondaries and not even need a secondary controller. Gen 2 has 2 sets of fuel injectors already. You can reconfigure so set one is off boost and set 2 is on boost. Actually, even if you had a Gen 1, you can get a gen 2 ecu and wiring harness conversion for a gen 1 ($200 I'm told) and have complete control in the factory ecu. If mine weren't already tuned and setup, that's what I would do.

Damn, all this talk makes me want to sell mine and do a Gen 2!

 

[IRDEATH1340]

if you get tuerbo pistons, dont need base plate spacer as pistons are shorter (i think thats correct) to lesson the compression just by installing them, if i were to use regular pistons i would need to use spacer to make less compression. at least this is what i have seen on shintz website about getting the turbo pistons it automatically drops the compression to 9:1. i already have an ecu editor, and data logger, meesed with it to load a custom map, but should be plug and play for a tuner who uses ecu editor to control the injectors, i definitely want the engine buit good. im up for any input so i get it right the first time

 

[G-Force]

JE and Wossner pistons require it, CP apparently don't. I didn't know that before! But I like JE, very good track record and listed as 'Extreme Duty', ha ha!