dialy driven stage 1 turbo question

Discussion in 'Turbo' started by kamikazi89, Nov 19, 2015.


  1. kamikazi89

    kamikazi89 Registered

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    Hello from Cyprus!!!
    I am new to the forum and this is my first post and sorry for my bad english!

    i own a 2006 white/silver busa and she have 20000 miles on the clock its a stock bike with just a single yoshi can and i make the small airbox mod.before i spend money to mods i like your advice about stage 1 turbo(stock internals) vs n/a build(full system exhaust cams&sprockets pc etc... but no overbore or high comp pistons and rods).I am not new to mods as i build car motors and fabricate skills but my big worry is if a busa stock motor can handle the boost as a daily driven bike and be reliable as a stocker.My goal is to have something different and reliable.Sorry if i wrote something that is answered hundred of times but i didn't find answer of all my worries.
     
  2. POWERHOUSE

    POWERHOUSE Frank Site Sponsor Registered

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    Frank
    Kamikaze89, yes, a stock busa motor can handle boost as a daily driver and be as reliable as the stocker. The key is the install and especially the tune. Your boost can only go as high as your available octane; here in the states we typically take 93 octane to 8 pounds boost on a stock compression (Gen 1) Busa. In addition to fuel tuning, you can take advantage of options in the ecu that will augment and safeguard your bike . . . :laugh:
     
  3. kamikazi89

    kamikazi89 Registered

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    Thanks for your reply.here in Cyprus we have 98 octane.for the ecu i bet on pc3usb as the tuners here is familiar with.safeguard?can you explain me that as my english is no good.thanks in advice
     
  4. oldgixxer

    oldgixxer Registered

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    rob mac
    Powerhouse or BCP,would you recommend throwing boost to a stock engine that has 20k miles on it or would you suggest a refresh?
     
  5. POWERHOUSE

    POWERHOUSE Frank Site Sponsor Registered

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    Frank
    Yes, you can and should use the PCIIIUSB for your fuel tune . . . however, if your ecu is flashed properly, you can optimize the ignition timing, remove the top speed limiter and enable a "hard" cut on the rev limit - all good for a turbo. If you send your ecu directly to POWERHOUSE, we can turn it around in one day . . . I would think usps priority international would be fine.

    Obviously a fresh motor would be the best way to go and if you were going to tear it down, turbo pistons, studs, etc. His stock motor at 20K would hold up fine if the tune is conservative and he is not greedy with the boost (IMHO) . . . :laugh:
     
  6. kamikazi89

    kamikazi89 Registered

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    I learn that (boost addict) the hard way years ago when i blow one of my cars engine and this is the reason i ask about reliability of busas motor on boost as daily driven.So you can say that with a proper install and tun at 6psi with gt28 turbo the bike can be safe as stock or once a year i have to compression test and that all safety checks?
     
  7. Kevin Jones

    Kevin Jones Registered

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    I tried to tune my gen 1 ecu without a PC with woolich autotune and it was just too tedious. Sometimes erroneous data would go in and you would actually take a step or even 2 backwards. Plus the calibrating of the sensors on the woolich wasn't as accurate as I thought it needed to be. I heard the gen 2 is much easier with this. I must have flashed that ecu 20 times before I even got to 40%TPS. Somebody who is better at this would have not had so many problems but at 90 seconds or so per flash, its time consuming. I did what Frank said, basically set the ecu up for shift kill/shift light/yadda but I did not know or make any timing adjustments. I am not that experienced. I have probably 50 passes and the motor hasn't gone off like a claymore yet but then again it isn't tuned that well. For daily and highway driving, it runs great. It runs good on the track but I know there is more there but then again it is a safer tune. If I was good enough to cut 1.2 60' times, I might consider paying for a pro tune but there is really no point as I am putting in a spacer anyhow and will need it anyway.
     
  8. Boosted Cycle Perf

    Boosted Cycle Perf Site Sponsor Donating Member Registered

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    Turbo Rob
    I wouldn't hesitate one bit if you've put a majority of the miles on it and know it's been maintained properly.
     
  9. kamikazi89

    kamikazi89 Registered

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    Another question is i can use only the begi fpr for the turbo setup or i can use every fpr i like?beacause i have tons of adjustable fpr's from cars thats really small size
     
  10. Boosted Cycle Perf

    Boosted Cycle Perf Site Sponsor Donating Member Registered

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    Turbo Rob
    A regular fpr will raise the fuel pressure 1 psi for every 1 pound of boost... 1:1 regulator.

    And fmu is a 8:1. Every 1 psi of boost it raises fuel pressure 8 psi. This is vital because you're using stock injectors, and more importantly an ecu that doesn't have a boost strategy.

    Basically when you're in boost, the ecu isn't exactly fueling the engine at that point, it's the massive increase in fuel pressure that makes the injectors flow more then their rated for. So indeed an fmu is going to be needed.
     
  11. kamikazi89

    kamikazi89 Registered

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    Thank you very much!!!
     
  12. Kevin Jones

    Kevin Jones Registered

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    Rob, you just pointed out something that I dont understand very well. I always knew that the difference between the lower boost +/- 10psi used an FMU, where as the higher boost units used a 1:1. Is this because the lack of secondaries, and the requirement for them and of the fuel controller for them is tuned to compensate for that ecu basically saying "I cant handle this". Or is it more complex than that? If it is, I wont ask you to explain. I just never really asked about that before.
     
  13. POWERHOUSE

    POWERHOUSE Frank Site Sponsor Registered

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    Four injectors alone on a Gen 1 driven by the stock ecu do not have enough "range" adequately fuel what is required on boost, the fmu extends that range by raising fuel pressure and flow. Having four additional injectors (secondaries) gives you enough range, and you can use a standard (1:1) boost-referenced regulator and lower pressures. Standalones are an exception to this . . . :laugh:
     
  14. Kevin Jones

    Kevin Jones Registered

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    Thanks for the explanation. So basically the stock injectors alone are overwhelmed by a stage 1 and the fmu is the band aid. I did see that there is a standalone by AEM? now for gen 1s that actually has plug n play, even dash stuff. $1800 I think. "Supposed" to be a straight up plug and play for the stock ecu, which the holley looked pretty strong and comparably priced but didn't have quite as much plug n play.
     
  15. Boosted Cycle Perf

    Boosted Cycle Perf Site Sponsor Donating Member Registered

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    Turbo Rob
    Frank,

    You're correct on the fmu extending the range of the fmu of course. However if it was merely just injector size that determine if an fmu is needed or not, the issue with fueling on a stage 1 gen 1 bike would be solved with bigger injectors. But we know even with S2K injectors or even 550s, an fmu is still needed if using the stock ecu still.

    What it really comes down to is the the fueling strategy encoded in the ecu, the gen 1 ecus dont recognize positive manifold pressure. (other then setting the fI light if you don't enable extended range) Since it doesn't know what to do with that, it for sure won't know what to do with injector pulsewidth.

    That's why we (and I've heard you do this before well) use the power commander hubs with the gm3 bar. Essentially that's adding a boost fuel strategy to the stock ecu, allowing for the use of a 1:1 regulator, and tuning of multiple boost levels. That's essentially the same thing the gen 2 ecus do is overlay boost fueling over the alpha-n map. (tps vs rpm)

    Stand alone ecus use speed density (boost referenced 1:1 fueling ((rpm vs. manifold pressure)) the same as the microtechs do.
     
  16. Boosted Cycle Perf

    Boosted Cycle Perf Site Sponsor Donating Member Registered

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    I have lots of experience with aem and Holley. I have a series 2 aem in my 240, and a Holley dominator ecu in my mustang. I'd strongly suggest the Holley over the aem. Way more user friendly, and with auto tune and closed loop system monitoring you almost have to try to melt a motor down using it.
     
  17. POWERHOUSE

    POWERHOUSE Frank Site Sponsor Registered

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    Rob, when dealing with a "do-it-yourself" kind of customer, doesn't it become readily apparent that things can get more complicated, especially when it comes to fueling? Too many think that a turbo is "bolt on", and that they can just twist the throttle into the sunset. The one or two smiles they get from that first ride can quickly disappear when they see smoke pouring from the exhaust. Setting up the fuel system correctly and tuning the bike properly becomes one of the most important parts of the build, the one big step that determines not only drive-ability, but reliability and power. That is why (IMO), builds like this should be done in a shop with experience, and with a tuner that has a forced-induction background. Do it once, do it right! :laugh:
     
  18. hendrixgr

    hendrixgr Registered

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    Chris
    Hi
    What about the instrument cluster, can the Holley drive the gen1 or gen2 instrument cluster?
    Btw i love my PCV pti with the autotune module, it makes tuning so easy (assuming that you have a safe map to begin with)
    Chris
     
  19. Boosted Cycle Perf

    Boosted Cycle Perf Site Sponsor Donating Member Registered

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    Turbo Rob
    The only gauge the Holley can run is a tachometer. You'll need stand alone gauges, or need to buy a Holley touch screen display or a race pack.

    Be careful with auto tune on the power commanders. It's fine for part throttle stuff, but it's just not fast enough to use all over. The holleys are super fast. There's a lot of stories on the Internet of how Holley efi saved guys motors. Last week I was driving my mustang and the alternator puked out on me. As the battery voltage started dropping off, of course the fuel pressure was dropping off too. The Holley actually increased the injector pulses to compensate for dropping fuel pressure. Made it home, and if it weren't for my (usually extremely loud) fuel pump was very quiet, I wouldn't of know it had an issue. Hooked up the computer and saw the ecu progressively added 8% more fuel to compensate for the falling fuel pressure. Saved my from having to get towed!
     
  20. 2wicked

    2wicked Registered

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    Richard Peppler

    The PCV with the 3 bar sensor and the boost fuel table is still pretty crappy. Sure you can use larger injectors now and a 1:1 regulator, but you can only change the main fuel table and a boost comp. table. The stock ecu will now over fuel at start up, as it uses an enrichment map for cold starts, it also over fuels when you twist the throttle quickly. We have used and tried most methods, if you want to run over 10psi secondaries with a controller is the best all around choice,

    Richard
     

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