.45ACP Ammo

[CTA_Busa_LE]

Originally Posted by bigoltool

This thread got me thinking. I have been contemplating getting a full size 45 primarily for paper but also Home defense etc. Anyways I came across this guys thread today and if you have a weak stomach when it comes to weapon abuse don't look. But it is amazing the stuff the guy put the Glock 21 through! I have never been a super big fan of plastic guns but man!

The glock is an amazing weapon, many plastic guns may look similar (Springfield XD, Walther, S&W M&P etc) but there are some big differences. Glock is the simplest and most indestructable in my opinion. When you get beyond basic field stripping for cleaning you will see the differences.

The biggest reason I got hooked on the Glocks is because I am left handed and ambidextrous controls are too bulky and those guns that don't offer ambi controls are not even an option for duty/combat use. You may be able to shoot them on a range but when it comes to gunfighting you better be able to operate the weapon in an efficient and fast manner. After years of shooting them and working on them I am more than sold on the idea there is NOTHING out there to compare to them. Just my two cents!

[CTA_Busa_LE]

Originally Posted by Mr Biscuit

when I was shooting regularly with my IPSC buddy, I did all my own loading.. (he shot easily 3500+ rounds a week off season, I might have shot 500) is it practical for you to buy a short supply of premium ammo and load all your own practice stuff?

I don't see a problem with shooting reloads on the range as long as the reloads are done by someone that knows what they are doing. If reloading for guns such as a Glock or other guns that have hexagonal or octagonal barrels instead of rifling, make sure you don't use lead cast bullets as the lead will build up inside causing chamber pressures that will result in failure and could result in serious injury. One can replace the factory barrel with a match barrel that has rifling if they want to shoot lead bullets.

On that, if you decide to shoot reloads for range use then maintain an amount of premium ammo for self defense, carry, or duty use, make sure the range ammo is of the same weight and velocity as the premium ammo. This will insure that your premium ammo hits at the same aiming point etc as the ammo you have programmed the gray matter between your ears with. It's all about consistency!

On that, once you have worked up a comparable reload you would need to figure cost of producing that load vs buying factory loads to determine if it is practical to shoot reloads on the range vs buying factory ammo for the range.

If you don't want to mess with reloads and also don't want to spend the money for premium rounds for the range, Speer offers a range version of their gold dot ammo for this exact reason. The Speer Lawman is a full metal jacket round that has the same velocity as the gold dot ammo, just a cheaper bullet. If you are shooting say a 165 grain gold dot for premium ammo, the 165 grain fmj lawman should perform identical to it. I'm sure other manufactures such as Winchester have something comparable to the SXT Ranger for range use as well.

[Robot]

Originally Posted by Mr Biscuit

when I was shooting regularly with my IPSC buddy, I did all my own loading.. (he shot easily 3500+ rounds a week off season, I might have shot 500) is it practical for you to buy a short supply of premium ammo and load all your own practice stuff?

Good Question!.......My buddies tell me ammo is hard to find with the ammo/gun grab going on right now. If you look at the ammolink, I have at the top of this thread, all the lower/mid priced stuff is sold out/ backordered.

At the moment reloading might be the only way to avoid sold out/back ordered status of many shops.

[Mr Bogus]

Here is Matts site... keep in mind he has to meet IPSC rules on weight/velocity of rounds but reliable, consistent ammo is pretty important to him (his career is as a professional shooter)

Welcome to MattBurkett.com you can shoot him an email about loads etc or jump on his forum..

some fun stuff

[Robot]

Originally Posted by Mr Biscuit

Here is Matts site... keep in mind he has to meet IPSC rules on weight/velocity of rounds but reliable, consistent ammo is pretty important to him (his career is as a professional shooter)

Welcome to MattBurkett.com you can shoot him an email about loads etc or jump on his forum..

Cool, much appreciated

[dadofthree]

Originally Posted by Southside Playa

I carry Remington Golden Sabres, as well as Federal Hi-Velocity Personal Defense (maybe .380 rounds). I have a box of Cor-Bon 185+P for my .4, but I haven't shot them yet. I am anxious to try the Winchester SXT & the Hronady TAP (I currently have some in my 12 ga.), they were higly recommended by several gun advocates in the area.

I have been a long-time Golden Sabre user, as they were sold to me to be one of the closest rounds that civilians can get that performs similar to a Black Talon.

I am not as well versed as CTA when it comes to the Ballistic numbers, but I know carry a .45 with some hot azz loads that can cause severe carnage, when properly placed. And have spent several nights this year at Holiday Inns !!

Seriosuly, though CTA, share some more of your vast knowledge. I have thought about getting a box of Hornady TAP, Win SXT, & my Sabres and doing some testing at the range. But that is a lot of good ammo & not to mention high $$ ammo to go and shoot up at the range right now, just to see which one I prefer. Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Anyone else, feel free to chime in.

Start running a mile and doing 25 pushups, come up and start shooting on the move. Doubt you'll ever meet a stationary black paper target.

[dadofthree]

Originally Posted by CTA_Busa_LE

I've got a Ruger LCP 380 that I just drop in my pocket and go. Also great for carrying inside my breast pocket in my riding jacket when on the busa.

+ 1

[Revlis]

I'm a long time fan of Cor-Bon. For mass produced ammo they are pretty consistent velocity wise and group well. It's all I load in my Sig226 Cor-Bon 125grn JHP +P+ for defense, very good round for a 9MM but also what the local PD loaded their 9MM firearms with a few years ago, not sure what they are carrying now.

That's really the key for any carry weapon, be sure to carry mass produced commercially available rounds in your carry weapon. Even better if they happen to be what the local PD, Staters, FBI, SS, or DSS carry. Anything else can open you up to some frivolous crap in court. Avoid like the plague any ammo with a "tough Guy" name. NO "penetrator", "annihilator", or any other small peni friendly name.

Remember, Winchester Ranger SXT used to be known as "Black Talon" until small minds and media hype caused controversy. The SXT line is essentially the same thing, used to be known as something dramatic and it caused problems.

[FloydV]

Originally Posted by CTA_Busa_LE

The Winchester SXT Ranger will perform better than the Black Talons ever did. Many gains have been made in bonding bullets since the Black Talon was on the market. To be honest the SXT Ranger is nearly the exact same thing as the Black Talon, just doesn't have the black coating. The gains that have been made since the black talons were on the market allows for the bullet to expand larger and more consistent and retain more of it's weight and shape than what the black talons ever could. Dig a Winchester SXT Ranger out of a block of ballistic gelatin and tell me what it looks like, it will look just like the pictures of the black talons but it won't have the black coating.

As for the Golden Sabre ammo, remington was offering them as a bonded bullet as well and I've tested some of them. They perform very very well and there is nothing wrong with them at all, provided they are in the bonded version of the bullet.

Why do we want bonded? Bonded bullets hold together, you will not see the jackets separating from the core, you won't have fragments of bullet that didn't penetrate deep enough. When the bullet holds together it has a much better chance of breaking bones and penetrating deeper.

Two things are what determines how fast a threat is stopped. First is shot placement, unless you hit your target in an area that will immobilize the target, the target may continue to fight. A determined target, such as a man who is shooting back at you, will continue to fight. Two areas that will cause such immobilization, head shot which strikes medulla oblongata or spine shot which causes paralyzation. The second thing is loss of blood. If you don't have placement to cause immediate disruption the only other way you will stop it is to cause it too bleed out. What are to factors that cause it to bleed quicker? Size of hole and depth of wound. So the deeper you can wound it and the bigger the outlet for the blood the quicker it will stop fighting.

I agree with your choice of ammo to a point.

First, anyone who thinks they are going to incapacitate a grizzly with a .45 needs to seriously re-think what they are doing. Grizzly are so tough, you could bounce .45s off their heads all day and just make them more angry. I would feel seriously underpowered with a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W. You really need a rifle. A 30-06 or .308 will do. A 300 magnum would be a better choice. I think these can be had in a carbine, although you will pay a penalty in having you shoulder dis-jointed.

I prefer 1911s. Blocks are just too ugly. I had a sales person show me how you could strike a Glock sideways and knock the gun off its rails. A Springfield Armory model will give you the same pistol with steel rails in the slide and the bottom if you just have to have a plastic pistol. I particularly like Hydra-Shok (Federal) 230 grain hps.

[dadofthree]

Originally Posted by Revlis

I'm a long time fan of Cor-Bon. For mass produced ammo they are pretty consistent velocity wise and group well. It's all I load in my Sig226 Cor-Bon 125grn JHP +P+ for defense, very good round for a 9MM but also what the local PD loaded their 9MM firearms with a few years ago, not sure what they are carrying now.

That's really the key for any carry weapon, be sure to carry mass produced commercially available rounds in your carry weapon. Even better if they happen to be what the local PD, Staters, FBI, SS, or DSS carry. Anything else can open you up to some frivolous crap in court. Avoid like the plague any ammo with a "tough Guy" name. NO "penetrator", "annihilator", or any other small peni friendly name.

Remember, Winchester Ranger SXT used to be known as "Black Talon" until small minds and media hype caused controversy. The SXT line is essentially the same thing, used to be known as something dramatic and it caused problems.

Hey, at least it's full metal jacket; small peni

[Robot]

Originally Posted by FAVahalik

I agree with your choice of ammo to a point.

First, anyone who thinks they are going to incapacitate a grizzly with a .45 needs to seriously re-think what they are doing. Grizzly are so tough, you could bounce .45s off their heads all day and just make them more angry. I would feel seriously underpowered with a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W. You really need a rifle. A 30-06 or .308 will do. A 300 magnum would be a better choice. I think these can be had in a carbine, although you will pay a penalty in having you shoulder dis-jointed.

I prefer 1911s. Blocks are just too ugly. I had a sales person show me how you could strike a Glock sideways and knock the gun off its rails. A Springfield Armory model will give you the same pistol with steel rails in the slide and the bottom if you just have to have a plastic pistol. I particularly like Hydra-Shok (Federal) 230 grain hps.

Anyone mention Grizzly

I have black bears near me, gun is not intended to hunt with(already clarified). But, I do have other sometimes rabid animals near me, fox, etc.

[dadofthree]

Originally Posted by FAVahalik

I agree with your choice of ammo to a point.

First, anyone who thinks they are going to incapacitate a grizzly with a .45 needs to seriously re-think what they are doing. Grizzly are so tough, you could bounce .45s off their heads all day and just make them more angry. I would feel seriously underpowered with a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W. You really need a rifle. A 30-06 or .308 will do. A 300 magnum would be a better choice. I think these can be had in a carbine, although you will pay a penalty in having you shoulder dis-jointed.

I prefer 1911s. Blocks are just too ugly. I had a sales person show me how you could strike a Glock sideways and knock the gun off its rails. A Springfield Armory model will give you the same pistol with steel rails in the slide and the bottom if you just have to have a plastic pistol. I particularly like Hydra-Shok (Federal) 230 grain hps.

All I own in a handgun is Glock. Federal Hydra - Shok 180 40 S&W

[FloydV]

Originally Posted by Robot

Anyone mention Grizzly

I have black bears near me, gun is not intended to hunt with(already clarified). But, I do have other sometimes rabid animals near me, fox, etc.

Sorry black bear. Animals are surprisingly tough. I hit an armadillo in the lung area with a 38 super, and it just ran off leaving a lot of blood. I switched back to .45 after that! I once hit a coyote with a .45 at about 25 yards off a highway, and took it out with a single shot (at night). That was 90% luck.

For rabid big animals, get a big gun!

[FloydV]

Originally Posted by dadofthree

All I own in a handgun is Glock. Federal Hydra - Shok 180 40 S&W

That's not a bad choice. The reason the FBI went with a 40 is that a double-stack .45 is to big for dainty female hands. Either .45 or .40 or most any pistol caliber is a choice where you are giving up real power for portability. No army would consider arming soldiers with pistols only.

I think the small and fast (hyper 9mm) vs. big and slow (.45) argument is pretty much over. Big and slow won. Big and fast is always preferable to either of the above. But in a pistol, big and fast is also can't-stay-on-a-target, and damned hard not to flinch with.

[dadofthree]

One of the biggest problems I've seen on the range is the limp arm that doesn't allow proper action/load. Talking dainty

[Billy Busa]

I don't like guns, if i ever owned a gun i would probably use it on someone.

[CTA_Busa_LE]

Originally Posted by FAVahalik

That's not a bad choice. The reason the FBI went with a 40 is that a double-stack .45 is to big for dainty female hands. Either .45 or .40 or most any pistol caliber is a choice where you are giving up real power for portability. No army would consider arming soldiers with pistols only.

I think the small and fast (hyper 9mm) vs. big and slow (.45) argument is pretty much over. Big and slow won. Big and fast is always preferable to either of the above. But in a pistol, big and fast is also can't-stay-on-a-target, and damned hard not to flinch with.

I wouldn't necessarily say big and slow won. There are plenty of variables that have to be taken into consideration. What is it that gives a rifle round so much power? It isn't the size but instead it is the speed. The problem with the 9mm wasn't that it was too fast, instead it was that the older bullets did not perform and what was happening was the bullet would pass through without any expansion. New bullet designs have helped tremendously. The new SXT Ranger since redesign has the 9mm expanding out to what a 40 used to and the 40 now expands to what a 45 used to. I have always been a fan of bigger is better but do from time to time carry a 9mm. When I do it is loaded with the Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P. NYPD went to this round and they have had no complaints with the 9mm since. See article link for article written by Massad Ayoob

Which pistol caliber for self defense? Four different people come to four defensible conclusions | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET

Truth is there is no one single round suitable for every situation, some are better at different situations than others. One has to do some homework, consider what situation they are most likely be confronted with then choose a round for the gun you are carrying that best fits your situation. Having a gun that you are comfortable and proficient with is much more important than anything else, once you find the gun then choose the round that will best fit your need.

[dadofthree]

Originally Posted by CTA_Busa_LE

Having a gun that you are comfortable and proficient with is much more important than anything else, once you find the gun then choose the round that will best fit your need.

Just a few thoughts : Don't carry unless you know, without any doubt that you could take another beings life ( unless we're talking hunting and fishing ). Anything you carry you had better be damned proficient with. ( the innocent will depend on it )

[FloydV]

Originally Posted by dadofthree

One of the biggest problems I've seen on the range is the limp arm that doesn't allow proper action/load. Talking dainty

My dad was a cop in the 1950 to 1975 era. I had access to the police pistol/rifle range. Because I started at age 16 when hearing protection was actually considered wimpy, I am now wearing two hearing aids.

But, I digress. I've seen women hold a pistol so "dainty" that they actually suffered facial injuries when the gun hit them due to recoil. You would think that an incident like that would promptly rectify the loose grip, but what I have seen is people (not all are women) who left angrily, never to return to a range.

The next biggest problem I've seen is flinching. If you want a super example, put three rounds scattered in a cylinder. Then let a person shoot without looking to see if a round is actually in the chamber. When they pull the trigger on an empty chamber, you can see the gun jerk strongly downward.

I always tell people to stop shooting when it becomes painful. If the web of your hand starts bleeding you can bet you are teaching yourself to flinch.

[CTA_Busa_LE]

Originally Posted by dadofthree

Just a few thoughts : Don't carry unless you know, without any doubt that you could take another beings life ( unless we're talking hunting and fishing ). Anything you carry you had better be damned proficient with. ( the innocent will depend on it )

I could not agree more. I apologize if I sounded any different.