Atheist Soldier sues DOD

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This is an interesting read and clearly illustrates something that has been going on for too long. I have to say that he is a pioneer when it comes to addressing this issue.


Atheist Soldier Sues Pentagon

KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.

Army Spc. Jeremy Hall, who was raised Baptist but is now an atheist, says the military violated his religious freedom.

1 of 2 Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.

He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.

Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.

In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.

Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.

Was an atheist soldier treated differently because of his beliefs? We're keeping the Department of Defense honest.

Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?"

Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.

He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.

"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.

Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.

"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.

Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.

"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."

Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.

Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Weinstein has a different interpretation.

"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army," he says.

But Carr said the military's position is clear.

"Proselytizing or advancing a religious conviction is not what the nation would have us do and it's not what the military does," Carr said.

The U.S. Justice Department is expected to respond to Hall's lawsuit this week. In the meantime, he continues to work in the military police unit at Fort Riley and plans to leave as soon as his tour of duty expires next year.
 
Hmmm.....

Having served for 24 + years, I have seen many odd things.  You have to know that if you want to cause a stink in close quarters then you should expect people to look around to find the "culprit".
 I am Mormon, and I can tell you now that when it comes to opinions about beliefs there are no shortage of people ready to chime in for me.
 It is a big Army.  I have served with all kinds of people, from all kinds of faiths.  Even Satanists  
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But when you consider that the MAJORITY...got that?...of soldiers are Christian they of course will be the ones that realize the greatest amount of support.  It would be a bit difficult to have an Athiest Chaplain serving the needs of the troops.
 I would suggest that there is something more going on here.  I will give two examples, one religious, the other political.

1)  Many years ago a young soldier was attending Primary Leadership Development Course (PLDC) as a requirement for promotion to SGT E5.  The course requirements included a formal Dinning-In where a toast is given.  This soldier protested citing his religious conviction for abstaining from alcohol.  He therefore failed to meet the course requirements and was reprimanded.  Without the ability to get promoted he was unable to continue his career.
He had a wife and two young children to support.  

2)  In 1995 SPC Micheal New was a medic stationed in Germany.  His unit had come down on orders to deploy for 6 months in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia under the auspice of UN peacekeeping.  SPC New made the firm statement that he was not going to deploy.  He violated several laws and regulations with this action, as well as breaking the oath he swore.  This action ended with a General Court Marshall conviction, a felony conviction.  Because of his choice he no longer can practice those basic rights of citizenship.  Voting, owning a weapon, etc.

 What I am advocating here is personal choice.  We each must choose the sword we want to fall on.  If SPC Hall doesn't want to believe in God, then simply stand in the back with the other individuals and be quiet.  If people are picking on him he might do well to follow the advice of the wise old drill sergeant and
"Toughen Up - Butter Cup"
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But always remember that the road this action goes down has already been paved several times. That is why we don't have the Ten Commandments in courtrooms, prayer in school, court cases trying to change the Pledge of Allegience, etc. And don't forget that as the pendulum swings it's arc the other way we get to enjoy public recognition for the Koran in state houses in place of Christmas nativity scenes.
 
I have to say I agree with your point, there arte many ways to look at this situation..it's almost like you can agree with both sides...hmmm is the best I can say here
 
There are entirely too many nuances here to begin to address completely.

Generally, as Rlbowers implied, "Toughen up, ya pansy." My thought is, believe what you want but keep it to yourself. Too many atheists make the rest of us look bad because they're just as evangelical and idiotic as some of the raving looney Christian nutballs I've encountered. No, it doesn't mean they are ALL like that, it only means that it's the idiotic minority of any group of people who make so much noise they irritate the rest of us, even those in their own groups.

The idiot in CA who sued to take "under god" out of the pledge of allegiance was a moron too. The case against the 10 commandments on the court house is insane. It's a long list.

The only thing that DOES bother me is that I have encountered quite a few Christian believers who are under the severely mistaken notion that if you are not a believer, you cannot be patriotic.

To that, there is only one response: BULLSH*T.

--Wag--
 
Now THAT I DO agree with Wag
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+1

I have a varied religious background.  I've known those from every belief system who give their "group" a bad name.  Boils down to respect for each other.  I don't care what you believe and I respect your beliefs, but when I say 'no thank you' to your message please stop trying to convert me and accept me as I am.
 
do people these days TRULY NOT UNDERSTAND how to interact with fellow humans?  this whole thing smells no different than a 5 year old telling another 5 year old his pants look stupid and the abused kid runs home crying to his mommy... who is a LAWYER and will SUE the other family?  People are PEOPLE. They suck. You suck! I suck! We ALL suck. Because we are not programmed robots [yet] we WILL do and say stupid and offensive stuff about whites, blacks, jews, catholics, christians, muslems, politicians, atheists, blonds, chinese, poker players, rednecks, jocks, freaks, nerds etc etc etc insert any group here and repeat. That is life

It's LAWYERS.  Again.  As always.  People are people.  Deal with it, people!  As a Christian, you don't think I take crap 5 times as bad as this whiner EVERY DAY?  I cope, adjust, deal with it and move on.  I guess it doesn't hurt me.

If ya don't like where you are at, too bad.  Get out.  Putting it into the hands of yet more lawyers only removes more of life from reality.
 
my way of filtering everything any more is this:

1) are lawyers involved?
2) if so, it's bullcrap we should be able to work out on our own
 
The United States was founded on Christian principals, if you think the military is "becoming" a Chriistian organization, guess again, the miliatry STARTED as an organization based in Christian princiipals. If anything the Christian part of our governemnt and military is being eroded away from its beginings, not the other way around

The seperation of Chruch and state was "intended" to keep government out of religeon, not religeon out of government.

In my long experaince (over 20 years) with the military, both Marines and Navy the one thing I have learned is if you keep your mouth shut and do your job people pretty much dont give a crap what you are into. but if you start doing something that is infringing upon others outside the scope of your job, that is when you start stirring a hornets nest.

I would speculate there is more to the story than he just became an athiest and people started hating him. Again, in my long experiance with the DoD people dont want to kill you just for being an athiest, I am a Christian and I dont hate Athiest and wouldnt try to harm anyone because of their beliefs, and most Christians I know are the same way.

So either this guy did something on a personal level to some people, or there is a small group of individuals that are having issues, it is in no way a DoD wide issue.
 
His argument is ridiculous. The Army has never been a Christian organization. All year long, I hear people fling all sorts of profanity and damning God's name. Then, we get deployed and everyone is Christ-conscious just because their life is in danger. When we come back, everything is back to the filthy norm. Everyone wants something to cry about.
 
His argument is ridiculous. The Army has never been a Christian organization. All year long, I hear people fling all sorts of profanity and damning God's name. Then, we get deployed and everyone is Christ-conscious just because their life is in danger. When we come back, everything is back to the filthy norm. Everyone wants something to cry about.
You just described the VAST majority of our entire population.
 
The United States was founded on Christian principals, if you think the military is "becoming" a Chriistian organization, guess again, the miliatry STARTED as an organization based in Christian princiipals. If anything the Christian part of our governemnt and military is being eroded away from its beginings, not the other way around

The seperation of Chruch and state was "intended" to keep government out of religeon, not religeon out of government.

In my long experaince (over 20 years) with the military, both Marines and Navy the one thing I have learned is if you keep your mouth shut and do your job people pretty much dont give a crap what you are into. but if you start doing something that is infringing upon others outside the scope of your job, that is when you start stirring a hornets nest.

I would speculate there is more to the story than he just became an athiest and people started hating him. Again, in my long experiance with the DoD people dont want to kill you just for being an athiest, I am a Christian and I dont hate Athiest and wouldnt try to harm anyone because of their beliefs, and most Christians I know are the same way.

So either this guy did something on a personal level to some people, or there is a small group of individuals that are having issues, it is in no way a DoD wide issue.
That is so true.
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Do I believe that the soldier has a right to deny God? Sure I do. God isn't going to force you to follow Him. You have to make that decision on your own.

Do you make a lousy leader if you refuse to pray with the team? Not necessarily, but if the majority of those under your control are Christians, or any other religion, and you are not, it will be tough to get them to follow you. They will not respect you, or follow you.

Personally, I wish everyone knew and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and God. I know that isn't going to happen though. I know that people are diverse, and not everyone can see, or chooses not to see what I see.

There is a lot more to this situation than is being shared. Basically, this guy is trying to remove religion from the military, just as prayer was removed from the school system. Once prayer was removed it was only a matter of time and things went to crap. We now have to have full time patrols working our children's schools. Not only to protect them from outsiders, but from themselves as well. Kids are raping others. Guns, knives and drugs are common-place. The school system in terms of education has taken a step backwards (If you don't believe me, ask a kid to give you change back without a cash register. They can't effectively do it). Yes, there were crimes while prayer was accepted in school, but it wasn't the norm. Today crime is a normal part of a child's school life. I say put God back into the schools, the court system, the military, and every other organization in America. Before we do this though, God needs to be placed in our individual homes.
 
I say put God back into the schools, the court system, the military, and every other organization in America. Before we do this though, God needs to be placed in our individual homes.
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It looks like you are suggesting Mass Social Programming and removal of independent thought.
Sounds a lot like the Inquisition. How would you enforce that, burning at the stake, torture, and secret police?
 
The seperation of Chruch and state was "intended" to keep government out of religeon, not religeon out of government.
I don't agree. People of all faiths vote and participate in government. Which faith should play a part in the governing of these people? In my humble opinion, religiously directed government action undermines the civil rights of people that are of a different faith or no faith at all.

Now, let's talk 1397 vs 08 Busa....
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I say put God back into the schools, the court system, the military, and every other organization in America. Before we do this though, God needs to be placed in our individual homes.
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It looks like you are suggesting Mass Social Programming and removal of independent thought.
Sounds a lot like the Inquisition. How would you enforce that, burning at the stake, torture, and secret police?
Burning at the stake.. too grusome, you lose the hearts and minds

Torture....  breeds rebellion

Secret Police.... we already have that, they already monitor everything we do, say and where we go.

Look at most of your traffic lights in large city's. most now have full camera systems.

Police deparments now have access to a centralized real time satlelite imagery system so when they have to send in a swat team the team and look at the area from a satelite view to scope out the area before entering.

Mass social programming? what do you think comercial advertisements do? they bombard us with the idea we also have to have the newest and best of everything.

Ever wonder why you can walk through a store and have this urge to by something you already have? like a TV? you might have a 26 inch TV tjhat works fine at home, but dang, that 32 inch TV is just soooo much bigger!!!

Matter of fact they will make it easy for you, you can purchase that 32 inch TV on credit so in the end it costs twice as much.

And what are you going to do with that 32 inch TV? watch a 60 minutes program that is 40 minutes long with 20 minutes of.... say it with me... more advertisements encouraging you to by more things you cannot afford.

That is programming, that is how companies encourage you to go into debt to purchase their product.


If you look at it we are controlled society. The only way you are truly free is if you are debt free and never purchase anything on credit. As long as you owe money, it makes it difficult to get off the radar, and companies do their best to make sure you stay in debt.



But dont ask me how I really feel  
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I say put God back into the schools, the court system, the military, and every other organization in America. Before we do this though, God needs to be placed in our individual homes.
rock.gif
It looks like you are suggesting Mass Social Programming and removal of independent thought.
Sounds a lot like the Inquisition. How would you enforce that, burning at the stake, torture, and secret police?
Burning at the stake.. too grusome, you lose the hear and minds

Torture....  breeds rebellion

Secret Police.... we already have that, they already monitor everything we do, say and where we go.

Look at most of your traffic lights in large city's. most now have full camera systems.

Police deparments now have access to a centralized real time satlelite imagery system so when they have to send in a swat team the team and look at the area from a satelite view to scope out the area before entering.

Mass social programming? what do you think comercial advertisements do? they bombard us with the idea we also have to have the newest and best of everything.

Ever wonder why you can walk through a store and have this urge to by something you already have? like a TV? you might have a 26 inch TV tjhat works fine at home, but dang, that 32 inch TV is just soooo much bigger!!!

Matter of fact they will make it easy for you, you can purchase that 32 inch TV on credit so in the end it costs twice as much.

And what are you going to do with that 32 inch TV? watch a 60 minutes program that is 40 minutes long with 20 minutes of.... say it with me... more advertisements encouraging you to by more things you cannot afford.

That is programming, that is how companies encourage you to go into debt to purchase their product.


If you look at it we are controlled society. The only way you are truly free is if you are debt free and never purchase anything on credit. As long as you owe money, it makes it difficult to get off the radar, and companies do their best to make sure you stay in debt.



But dont ask me how I really feel  
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I knew somebody would counter-argue that point exactly..
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Was just hoping it wouldn't be so quick..
 
In addition, what it boils down to is that "THEY" all want to bleed you.. Go to the store and spend all your cash, then spend all your credit... Go to church and pay a tithe, the pastor needs a new cadillac and rolex and the pope needs a new pope mobile and PRADA shoes.
 
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