Tax Revolt-my reply to tax cheats

[2hip]

To Atomic Ass and his remarks about tax cheating....Please first read the Tax revolt thread that got me involved with this individual's espousal of becoming a tax cheat.

Do any of you guys remember Howard Ruff...the gold guru of the 70's. This type of mentality, as well meaning as it could be, is so far out of practical reach of most people that it is ludricous to dangle this sort of mythical carrot in front of people. Do we need reform?..Do we like all of the things are gov't does? Are we up to our necks in debt and they just keep shoveling it on more every day? What you are espousing is revolution, anarchy...and carried out to the Nth degree results in what? The end of civilization as we know it...and what, sir, do you propose to replace it with? Are you such a leader that can come up with a better constituiton then what was written by Thomas Jefferson? Have you lived in other parts of the world for years at a time like I have and witnessed other forms of government, corruption, tyranny, and civil rights problems that dwarf our problems?
Yes, we have a big problem in America...and it is going to get a lot worse before it gets fixed. Your ideas of getting away from fiat money...money not backed by a tangible value...has been a simmering sore for a long long time. A lot of these young guys haven't been around long enough to have heard all of this crap before. Our taxes, albeit used inconsistently and stupidly, pay for medicare payments to old people who are in the last quarter of their life and need federal help...infrastructure like damns, roads, airports, and parks are paid by our taxes...our military is funded by taxes...our postal system..our social security retirement system...and you want to destroy our system and replace it with what?...I have lived in communist countries and seen what infrastructure they have...what social programs they have...In Russia if you are out of work...there is no unemployment monies, no disability, and few have a retirement at all. Guess what, my friend, guess how most of the business is done in Russia? Under the table...away from the gov'ts greedy fingers. Russians are some of the most clever, hard nosed people you will ever meet. They shoot journalists in the head if you investigate the gov't or the underworld...well at least they give them one warning and the next warning has a loud bang associated with it. There country has so much corruption it makes the boys in Chicago look like school children stealing the other guys marbles. I have personally witnessed things while living there that would be incomprehensible to you unless you understood the mechanisms and the culture...it is not a pretty side
This civil disobedience thing you are espousing raises it's head about every decade or two due to people's disgust at the government. I understand exactly where you are at...but to pontificate this civil disobedience to people who have no earthly means as ordinary citizens is beyond credible thought. A tax cheater has to face the music sooner or later. Stop paying your taxes...use only gold and silver...end up getting caught and pay back what you owe, interest, and fines...and go to jail...Your life is ruined...and for what? No federal court to this date has taken the side of a tax cheat. IRS has and will use any legal mechanism in their large array of tools to disembowel you. And they are quite good at it.
Show us your great plan how to bring America out of this dilemma? But to tell people who count on their jobs and paychecks to feed children, buy groceries, put a little dress on their wife, make house payments...and hide their income from the gov't till it stops to exist and then total anarchy sets in....paalease...the thing that is always interesting to me is this shizzle is usually someone else's disenchanted regurgatation...ad nauseum...What makes you think that someone as insignigicant as you or I have either the mental finess or capital to bring about the revolution our country needs....believe me...it will take alot smarter man than you or I to change this country. I would only ask that if there is to be a revolution that the plans be good ones...that will give our great nation stabilty, nobility, and a sweetness to it that people can believe in and be nurtured by...tax cheating has none of the above mentioned attributes that would instill into people something worth fighting for...
If you have studied the history of civilizations you would understand that governments are necessary evils. To go back to a land with no government, no police, no infrastructure, would be a hell hole ruled by the cruelest and most savage people you cannot imagine...You would have Somalia and Haiti type of societies? Where the cruelest and strongest throw crumps off of their tables to their dogs who will do their bidding....there is no effective governements in either land...this is what you would have us be? Governments need money to operate..to keep order..because, whether you realize it or not, the nature of men at the most basic level is not very refined..the scripture that says it best is "the natural man is an enemy to God" and if you take God out of that and just try to understand it on human terms...we would self implode without the structure and safety of laws, courts, and social programs that keep people within balance..We are light years ahead of the some of our fellow planet walkers...and I am disgusted as well with the direction of our govt right now...but what you saying ...show me how that leads to stability, nobility, and safety by not paying the taxes necessary for our government to maintain order? I will listen..2hip

 

[Rauzer]

IBTL...

Excellent post. This thread is sure to go to hell and then get deleted.

 

[B@DA$$08BUS@]

Great post, and I second rauzer's thoughts.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[ajblbv]

Good points.

 

[aussiekeeper]

VOTE,VOTE,VOTE.

Those who should not be able to vote:

Illegals
Welfare recipients
Convicted Felons....I know they can't, but there is talk of changing that.


And in my opinion, anyone that cannot pass a common sense test.

 

[mofuggahere]

VOTE,VOTE,VOTE.

Those who should not be able to vote:

Illegals
Welfare recipients
Convicted Felons....I know they can't, but there is talk of changing that.


And in my opinion, anyone that cannot pass a common sense test.

So, someone who is going thru a tough time in their life who has held steady jobs for decades and paid taxes, but who now finds themselves needing help from the government in the form of welfare...food stamps....whatever you call it..........let me get this straight......they should loose the ability to have their vote? Is this how you really feel?

Get outta here.

 

[MST1TED]

VOTE,VOTE,VOTE.

Those who should not be able to vote:

Illegals
Welfare recipients
Convicted Felons....I know they can't, but there is talk of changing that.


And in my opinion, anyone that cannot pass a common sense test.

So, someone who is going thru a tough time in their life who has held steady jobs for decades and paid taxes, but who now finds themselves needing help from the government in the form of welfare...food stamps....whatever you call it..........let me get this straight......they should loose the ability to have their vote? Is this how you really feel?

Get outta here.

And what about a felon who is an American citizen, The punishment that person receives from the court or jury of so called peers should be the punishment period...not a life time ban on any other rights. After a punishment is served all rights and privlages should be reinstated.

 

[aussiekeeper]

So, someone who is going thru a tough time in their life who has held steady jobs for decades and paid taxes, but who now finds themselves needing help from the government in the form of welfare...food stamps....whatever you call it..........let me get this straight......they should loose the ability to have their vote? Is this how you really feel?

Get outta here.

No, not that kind. The kind that is on welfare for life.
I think maybe you didn't pass the test.............lol

 

[aussiekeeper]

And what about a felon who is an American citizen, The punishment that person receives from the court or jury of so called peers should be the punishment period...not a life time ban on any other rights. After a punishment is served all rights and privlages should be reinstated.

Presently, felons cannot vote. Seems they do not have common sense.

 

[TheAtomicAss]

I'm going break this quote up so I can actually read it, (paragraphs are your friend), and so I can properly address the points.

Do any of you guys remember Howard Ruff...the gold guru of the 70's. This type of mentality, as well meaning as it could be, is so far out of practical reach of most people that it is ludricous to dangle this sort of mythical carrot in front of people. Do we need reform?..Do we like all of the things are gov't does? Are we up to our necks in debt and they just keep shoveling it on more every day? What you are espousing is revolution, anarchy...and carried out to the Nth degree results in what? The end of civilization as we know it...and what, sir, do you propose to replace it with? Are you such a leader that can come up with a better constituiton then what was written by Thomas Jefferson? Have you lived in other parts of the world for years at a time like I have and witnessed other forms of government, corruption, tyranny, and civil rights problems that dwarf our problems?

How would this result in the end of civilization? can you provide specific points for what you expect to happen if we were to make the voluntary return to a non-fiat currenecy?

As for your Constitution remarks, I'm assuming you've read the charter in my signature. (If you haven't, please do, I naturally think quite highly of my charter. ) What I advocate is not anarchy, which is the complete absence of law or disregard for it. No, what I advocate is law that prohibits the incursion of Rights, whether from the state, or from other individuals, and NOTHING ELSE. I think the Constitution of the united States is a powerful document when it is adhered to, but I also realize it has it's limits, which are the borders of this country. My charter is not intended to be bound by borders, and that is why I have written it.

I admit I have not traveled to other countries as of yet, but I suspect that an enforcement of my charter in those countries you talk about would probably benefit those countries greatly.

Yes, we have a big problem in America...and it is going to get a lot worse before it gets fixed. Your ideas of getting away from fiat money...money not backed by a tangible value...has been a simmering sore for a long long time. A lot of these young guys haven't been around long enough to have heard all of this crap before. Our taxes, albeit used inconsistently and stupidly, pay for medicare payments to old people who are in the last quarter of their life and need federal help...infrastructure like damns, roads, airports, and parks are paid by our taxes...our military is funded by taxes...our postal system..our social security retirement system...and you want to destroy our system and replace it with what?...I have lived in communist countries and seen what infrastructure they have...what social programs they have...In Russia if you are out of work...there is no unemployment monies, no disability, and few have a retirement at all. Guess what, my friend, guess how most of the business is done in Russia? Under the table...away from the gov'ts greedy fingers. Russians are some of the most clever, hard nosed people you will ever meet. They shoot journalists in the head if you investigate the gov't or the underworld...well at least they give them one warning and the next warning has a loud bang associated with it. There country has so much corruption it makes the boys in Chicago look like school children stealing the other guys marbles. I have personally witnessed things while living there that would be incomprehensible to you unless you understood the mechanisms and the culture...it is not a pretty side

I don't believe we need a medical system that is 1/5th our nation's economy. (This may be an old number, the most recent I've heard is 17% of GDP.) I understand that a large portion of our illness in this country today is largely due to our diets and lack of exercise. We are among the least healthy nations in the world, and yet we spend the most on health care. There's obviously something broken for that to be the case.

What can be found with careful investigation is that insurance, in the form we currently have where EVERYTHING including routine doctor visits are covered, if not totally, at least partially, regardless of the source of this insurance, (government, private), destroys the normal market forces that determine price, causing medical services prices to rise at a rate higher than the inflation of the currency it's paid with.

What's worse about this system is you can't find a job where you don't pay for insurance at least once. I pay for health insurance TWICE despite the fact I don't have any. My take-home paycheck would literally DOUBLE if I could annex the double health insurance payments made before my check is even printed.

Is that to say I'm in favor of destroying health insurance? No. I simply recognize the necessity to use it wisely, that being more like proper car insurance, you don't make a claim for the little dents and dings (routine visits and minor procedures, broken limbs), the insurance is ONLY for large sudden expenses (cancer, tumors, other large operations).

This civil disobedience thing you are espousing raises it's head about every decade or two due to people's disgust at the government. I understand exactly where you are at...but to pontificate this civil disobedience to people who have no earthly means as ordinary citizens is beyond credible thought. A tax cheater has to face the music sooner or later. Stop paying your taxes...use only gold and silver...end up getting caught and pay back what you owe, interest, and fines...and go to jail...Your life is ruined...and for what? No federal court to this date has taken the side of a tax cheat. IRS has and will use any legal mechanism in their large array of tools to disembowel you. And they are quite good at it.

But wait, how do you owe the tax? For this purpose, let's separate the different taxes and focus solely on the FEDERAL income tax. The federal income tax is ONLY used to pay the private, for profit federal reserve bank the INTEREST on the money (FRN's) that they loan to the government. If you do not transact in FRN's, what claim does the federal government have on your productive efforts? Therein lies the heart of the matter. I'm not advocating not paying FRN taxes if they are owed, as you are contractually obligated to do so, but how does one even quantify transactions made in non-fiat currencies? With the dollar doing roller-coaster moves around gold, it would be next to impossible to pin down the FRN value of your transactions, and the income tax only has measurements for FRN-valued transactions.

Also, how many of those tax cheats cheated on their FRN taxes? I'm willing to bet it's 100%.

Show us your great plan how to bring America out of this dilemma? But to tell people who count on their jobs and paychecks to feed children, buy groceries, put a little dress on their wife, make house payments...and hide their income from the gov't till it stops to exist and then total anarchy sets in....paalease...the thing that is always interesting to me is this shizzle is usually someone else's disenchanted regurgatation...ad nauseum...What makes you think that someone as insignigicant as you or I have either the mental finess or capital to bring about the revolution our country needs....believe me...it will take alot smarter man than you or I to change this country. I would only ask that if there is to be a revolution that the plans be good ones...that will give our great nation stabilty, nobility, and a sweetness to it that people can believe in and be nurtured by...tax cheating has none of the above mentioned attributes that would instill into people something worth fighting for...

I'm not advocating trying to hide FRN income. You can't, actually, save working for cash, which in turn has it's own problems if you have to pay any bills with your name on it. I'm merely saying that we begin to do what local, P2P business we can in a non-fiat currency. Let the seed take root, and eventually you will have a mighty oak. It takes time, this won't happen overnight.

Each and every one of us has the mental capacity to understand this simple concept when explained properly. Together, we have the capital to make it happen. United we stand, divided we fall.

If you have studied the history of civilizations you would understand that governments are necessary evils. To go back to a land with no government, no police, no infrastructure, would be a hell hole ruled by the cruelest and most savage people you cannot imagine...You would have Somalia and Haiti type of societies? Where the cruelest and strongest throw crumps off of their tables to their dogs who will do their bidding....there is no effective governements in either land...this is what you would have us be? Governments need money to operate..to keep order..because, whether you realize it or not, the nature of men at the most basic level is not very refined..the scripture that says it best is "the natural man is an enemy to God" and if you take God out of that and just try to understand it on human terms...we would self implode without the structure and safety of laws, courts, and social programs that keep people within balance..We are light years ahead of the some of our fellow planet walkers...and I am disgusted as well with the direction of our govt right now...but what you saying ...show me how that leads to stability, nobility, and safety by not paying the taxes necessary for our government to maintain order? I will listen..2hip

Government's only possible role is to prevent exactly that. To prevent some individuals from encroaching on the Rights of other individuals. When it grows beyond that, it becomes the thing it was designed to prevent. The biggest mistake the founding fathers made was to reconvene after the Constitution and it's first 10 amendments were ratified. We needed only one more amendment after that, and we went the entirely wrong way about getting it.

Also you started this paragraph on a good note, but I'll admit I'm having trouble reading the rest without laughing, as it shows a tendency towards the subtle brain-washing we experience in the information age, but I will try to address the points seriously regardless.

Benjamin Franklin said that those who would trade freedom for safety will deserve and receive neither. I can't articulate that point better.

The "social programs" prop up a portion of our society that would otherwise fail if left to it's own devices. I'm fine with them failing. Why? No person is so totally handicapped physically they cannot create some value, even if they have to employ others to assist in the creation of that value. Extremely few are so handicapped mentally they are incapable of creating value. The rest are merely mentally lazy (or even physically), and don't deserve any dole-out. Yes, it makes me a little cold-hearted, but think, if they can't produce, and daddy government were to destroy itself, what would happen to them then?

Our current state of disorder stems directly from the government which seeks to regulate and prevent the production of value. Think, for a moment, of the climate-gate issue. The UN was (still is), pushing an agenda that would destroy a great amount of industry the world over. For what, a lie? Now that man-made global-warming has been proven a hoax and a fraud, are they backing off plans to tax carbon-dioxide production? No, they are forging ahead.

Social programs that allow people to sit on welfare for decades reduce the worker base, harming production.

Taxes that have no bearing on the proper functions of government in any way, shape or form place upon the economy a load that forces prices higher, wages lower, and reduces the purchasing power of the individual, contracting the economy and forcing government to raise tax rates or print more money, resulting in inflation, to prop-up all the needless programs, and so-on in a vicious circle.

Tell me again, which direction results in anarchy, because I think the current system does. ???

As for those things that we need, such as police, firefighters, courts, and such like, this gets into a different tack. I think a sales tax, administered at the local level, and so subject to local control, is perhaps the best way to go about it. Keeping in mind that the cry that there are not enough police is similar to the boy crying wolf, as the number of uniformed officers in this country has TRIPLED in the past decade.

 

[B@DA$$08BUS@]

Bottom line is even if one was to use Gold and Silver as form of payment YOU WOULD BE TAXED ON IT!!! same as with trading.

What you are speaking of here (in my opinion) is treason and is punishable by death of a firing squad...

 

[TheAtomicAss]

Bottom line is even if one was to use Gold and Silver as form of payment YOU WOULD BE TAXED ON IT!!! same as with trading.

What you are speaking of here (in my opinion) is treason and is punishable by death of a firing squad...

If the government intends to collect taxes on payments made with gold and silver, then please quote the law saying they can. Even if I don't agree with it, stating a law that anyone can look up on an official government website would do wonders for the credibility of your statement.

Treason, n; 1. the crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government : they were convicted of treason.
2. the action of betraying someone or something : doubt is the ultimate treason against faith.

Is it treason to believe that the government of the country in which I reside has become destructive of that country, and attempt to remedy the situation?

It was treason (against the king of England) for this country to exist in the first place. Treason (against the people) is what I know the current government to be engaging in.

 

[jphilipson]

So, someone who is going thru a tough time in their life who has held steady jobs for decades and paid taxes, but who now finds themselves needing help from the government in the form of welfare...food stamps....whatever you call it..........let me get this straight......they should loose the ability to have their vote? Is this how you really feel?

Get outta here.

I'm with ya there .. so if you're poor, you can't vote? That's nuts.. guess it will help the republicrats keep them poor..

 

[mofuggahere]

No, not that kind. The kind that is on welfare for life.
I think maybe you didn't pass the test.............lol

No i pass the test just fine, maybe your opinion would be a bit different if you ever had to struggle through a rough year or 2 and needed a little help. Maybe not

 

[aussiekeeper]

I have struggled (years ago) but I have paid a lot into the system. I am not referring to those that need a little help. I'm referring to those who WON'T work..........

 

[skydivr]

I like the idea of 'franchise' as espoused in Heinlein's "Starship Toopers". Those who did not earn 'franchise', either thru military service or some other options, while having all the other rights as normal citizens, did not have the right to vote for it.

You put nothing into the system, you get no choice on how the system's run.

And I'm sorry, you commit a felony, you should have NO right to vote, from then on. Guess what, life's tough.

 

[Justyntym]

I like the idea of 'franchise' as espoused in Heinlein's "Starship Toopers". Those who did not earn 'franchise', either thru military service or some other options, while having all the other rights as normal citizens, did not have the right to vote for it.

You put nothing into the system, you get no choice on how the system's run.

And I'm sorry, you commit a felony, you should have NO right to vote, from then on. Guess what, life's tough.

+ 1 zillion

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.
It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote
themselves largess out of the public treasury. – Alexander Tytler

Does that sound like where we are now?

Couple points: 2hip your insinuating we trash our consitituion in place of another
world govt' or rather let things continue because the alternatives are worse...
NIETHER, the alternative is to return to THE CONSTITUTION!..and common sense.
We know we have the best form of govt' we just have to get back to it.

Last bit of tax info I saw said that ALL our income tax goes for is to pay the
interest on the debt...ALL OF IT. All the things you speak of, medicare/military
etc. is funded by business revenue.

Lastly...2hip dude....PARAGRAPHS are your friend...lease:

 

[Justyntym]

Bottom line is even if one was to use Gold and Silver as form of payment YOU WOULD BE TAXED ON IT!!! same as with trading.

What you are speaking of here (in my opinion) is treason and is punishable by death of a firing squad...

Anybody wanna show me where personal income tax is legal...

Bear in mind I am not advocating or excusing submitting false documents.
I take offense to people who bend the facts and get back thousands...it's Bull.

My problem is with the way the system works (or doesn't) by punishing those
that make more and rewarding those that are inept...

I'd like to see a federal sales tax and be done with it.

 

[TheAtomicAss]

Last bit of tax info I saw said that ALL our income tax goes for is to pay the
interest on the debt...ALL OF IT. All the things you speak of, medicare/military
etc. is funded by business revenue.

Actually, the entirety of income tax, whether personal or corporate, is used to pay the interest on the debt. And in bad times like this, they're probably borrowing a little extra just to make the interest payments.

The money the government pays out for anything is what it borrows. So they're basically charging the wars on their massive, no-spending-limit credit card.

 

[TheAtomicAss]

A point I neglected to mention in my reply to 2hip is that war is nearly impossible, if my charter were to be enforced worldwide by all Sovereign individuals. War is a product of despots, tyrants and thugs, all of whom fear individual Sovereignty. If the people under those despots, tyrants and thugs wake up and realize they are being used, war naturally ceases to exist.

VVVVVVV *Hinthinthintmycharterisdowntherehinthinthint* VVVVVVV