gotta ask (Busa Good First Bike?)

[Big O]

Dude! that's NOT Rosie O'Donnell!! That's girlongixxer (I believe)

As far as getting a 'Busa for your first bike, since you're going to do it, be careful, take a class.

[jwcfbd]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (canIdream? @ April 20 2003,3:20)]not to mention those damn xrays of (i forgot who) the guy that panicked on an unknown sharp turn and hit a tree, good Lord.

That would be me. The best advise that I can give is be careful when riding in groups. *That was the first time I rode with people I know and I was trying to keep up with them. *They pulled away from me and when I saw a chance to catch up with them I took it. *This is where I screwed up. *I had over 30000 miles on my 600 when I traded it in for my Busa. *I thought I knew how to ride. *But I was sadly mistaken. *You can ride everyday and put a lot of miles under your belt but until you have to make a split second decision and act on it that is when you'll find out just how good you really are. *I learned the hard way I can't ride as good as I thought I could. *I now know that I go at my pace and not anybody's else's. *If they can't respect that then find someone else to ride with or go alone. *The last time I rode in a group we had faster and slower riders then me but we all had a blast. *The slower stayed together the faster pulled away and I was somewhere in the middle. *On one road 80 was a little unnerving but 70 was a lot of fun. *The lead guy slowed it down for me. *It is very easy to get wrapped up in a group and forget what you are doing. *Try to keep your mind on what you are doing and * * *not what everyone else is doing. *Know your limits and live with them or you may wind up with some X-rays of your own.
Jim

[Dangerously]

Maybe if you put a limiter on it at about 6000rpm.

Otherwise, I'd go for something smaller to start with.

[amsctalx]

***With all due respect to my esteemed compatriots that started riding street bikes on Hayabusas...***

Fighter pilots start out F/A-18s, right?

Race bike riders start out in MotoGP, correct?

Why do people think that there is anything of value to starting riding street-bikes on heavy, powerful bike of any make or model? Let me qualify this serious question by stating that I am not insisting that everyone that gets a sport-bike must road-race the thing. Far from it. I am more concerned with street survival skills in discussions like these.

How does one keep from having accidents? The factors include:
-Situational Awareness (including a plethora of factors, but for our purposes I'll limit this to the awareness of other drivers/riders-and your relation to them, and road condition)
-Knowledge of the performance envelope of the vehicle
-Vehicle control neuro-motor conditioning
Prepared responses to problems and unexpected situations

Developing these skills, conditionings and experiences is an order of magnitude more difficult on a heavy, powerful bike (or any other vehicle, for that matter) than on a lighter, less powerful bike.

Why a smaller, lighter and less powerful bike? Several reasons:
-Responsiveness: lighter bikes allow the rider to change the attitude of the bike with less effort. It has been shown in a number of studies that an inexperienced rider is less liable to over-input a more responsive bike than a less.

-Controllability: which bike is less likely to overcome the limits of adhesion of it's rear tire - an EX500 or a Hayabusa? More engine output means more opportunities for error. It also means that things simply happen faster, as the rider gets into a crisis faster and with more kinetic energy.

On the street, these benefits translate into:
-Decision time: the rider has more time to decide what to do in a crisis. This is vitally important; as less experienced riders need the most time to avoid dangerous situations. New riders have the greatest problem with "target fixation", and they do not have the experience and conditioning to deal with common street riding dangers.

-Flexibility: the rider is not "penalized" as greatly for control input and judgment errors. This reduces the probability of terminal loss of control.

-"Limits" experience: Crisis avoidance often requires operating a vehicle at the extreme limits of performance. Operating up to the limits WITHOUT exceeding them is an essential part of avoiding an accident. Learning how to detect where the limits are, and how to ride against those limits is MUCH easier with a bike with lower limits. And those experiences can be transferred to bikes with ever greater performance envelopes.

-Satisfaction: Have you ever been in a crisis situation, and overcame that crisis through thought and training? Remember how satisfying that was? Is there a person here that doesn't want to know in their heart that they have near-total control over their bike?

What are the benefits to starting riding on a "hyper-bike"?

[Sounds of crickets chirping...]

What possible benefit could there be? Don't you think that riding schools would use, and promote the use of these in basic rider training if there were? I would be hard-pressed to find any organization of any kind that would encourage people to learn vehicle control basics on "top-of-the-foodchain" vehicles. The vast majority of vehicle operator training programs use a "graduated" approach to mastery.

My personal experience bears this out. Of the (about) five people in my local area that I know that started riding street-bikes on hyper-bikes: two of them have had serious control-related accidents. Two of them sold their bikes with no intention of getting any other kind of bike, one after a minor control-related accident. Another is looking for a good deal on a 600.

I can't force anyone to make a reasonable first bike purchase. If all you want is an expensive "ego-stroke" that you never are able to completely get a handle on, that's your descision.

Just ask yourself a couple of questions, though:
-Do I want get the most out of my purchase?
-Do I want to have control over my bike?
-Do I want to have a "fighting chance" to deal with a crisis?
-Is it reasonable that I might NOT know more than top racers, riding schools and about every other vehicle operator programs?
-Do I ultimately want the most FUN out of my purchase?

If you answered yes to these questions, you should be able to answer the question "should I start riding street bikes on a Busa" yourself.

Mike

[Deputy]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Kerberos @ April 19 2003,8:43)]

way to make someone feel welcome here.

Don't pay any attention to that canidream. It's a good question and you deserve a good response. I personally think some people just don't like to see anyone else buying a hayabusa for some silly and vain reasons that I won't go into here.

My thought on you getting one is definitely do it. You can kill yourself on any bike from a rm250 to a hayabusa. You know your limits and what you are and are not capable of. You should do what your heart tells you to do. One either falls in love at first sight at the busa or does not. If you have, then buy one as soon as you are able. Life is too short to deny yourself of dreams. Live the dream I say.

Welcome to the board !!

Kerb: With you 100% on this one. I also have seen this "don't buy this bike it's not for you, start smaller" theory on many other forums. I'm sure a lot of people think they are looking out for others best interests, but I do get the distinct underlying message in some of the replys that people, for some strange reason, project a certain "elitist" attitude about bikes like the Busa.

There is NO definite proof that starting out with a smaller bike and "working up" is a benefit to the rider. First off, nobody can agree on what size "smaller" bike it should be. Second, a smaller bike is going to have VERY different characteristics from a Busa or any other Sportbike. And even if the person rode that smaller bike for 10 years, there's nothing written in stone that says he won't get on the Busa and wreck it the first day. Especially if he is used to a bike that is much less powerful and much more manuverable than a Busa.

To me the MATURITY (not age, but the way a person handles himself) is the most important thing when considering a bike like the Busa or any other bike with similar capabilities.
I have seen mature young riders and idiot older riders.
As long as you realize the capabilities of the bike you are riding, and the limitations of the skill you have AS a rider, I think a Busa would be a fine first bike.

just my opinion

Dep

[Kerberos]

Just a note here to ammend my previous:

I love my bike. When we met, I knew she was perfect. How she looked, felt, everything about her. I dont think that I ride careful to protect myself. I honestly think I ride careful to protect her. I can't bear the thought of even dust and dirt on her. A collision? OMG it would break my heart. I am up EVERY morning at sunrise now since we met in July of 02. I have five different cloths I use to clean. One is just for the windscreen and mirrors; one is for the tank-nose-instruments-tail; one is for lower side fairings-undertail-fenders; one for the wheels-swingarm-under fairings at the bottom;and one for the chain. I sit and watch the AZ sunrise on her freshly polished body every morning with a cup of coffee. A true thing of beauty; A work of man's finest art in sculpture. *


I won't put her in a position to be harmed. That is true love. The caring of another above one's self. It almost seems that if I keep her safe, I wil be safe also.

[amsctalx]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Deputy @ April 20 2003,1:35)]

Kerb: With you 100% on this one. I also have seen this "don't buy this bike it's not for you, start smaller" theory on many other forums. I'm sure a lot of people think they are looking out for others best interests, but I do get the distinct underlying message in some of the replys that people, for some strange reason, project a certain "elitist" attitude about bikes like the Busa.

There is NO definite proof that starting out with a smaller bike and "working up" is a benefit to the rider. First off, nobody can agree on what size "smaller" bike it should be. Second, a smaller bike is going to have VERY different characteristics from a Busa or any other Sportbike. And even if the person rode that smaller bike for 10 years, there's nothing written in stone that says he won't get on the Busa and wreck it the first day. Especially if he is used to a bike that is much less powerful and much more manuverable than a Busa.

To me the MATURITY (not age, but the way a person handles himself) is the most important thing when considering a bike like the Busa or any other bike with similar capabilities.
I have seen mature young riders and idiot older riders.
As long as you realize the capabilities of the bike you are riding, and the limitations of the skill you have AS a rider, I think a Busa would be a fine first bike.

just my opinion

Dep

There are a number of fallacies and outright errors in several of these post.

1) "You can kill yourself just as easy on an RM250 as a Busa."
Someone can "kill themselves' with a butter-knife. The point is that a smaller, lighter and less powerful bike is easier to learn riding fundamentals with. Period. Ask top-level racers and riding instructors.

2) "You know your limits and what you are and are not capable of."
Precisely how does someone know their limits prior to practicing any activity? This is a key point right here. New riders don't.

3) "There is NO definite proof that starting out with a smaller bike and "working up" is a benefit to the rider."
Besides the fact that this flies in the fact of common sense, there have been a number studies done world-wide over the years. Do a web-search for "NHTSA Summary Report Number DOT HS 808 569". Read the whole thing. Also, there are studies that have been done in Europe that have lead to the formation of many European country's graduated license programs.

4) "Second, a smaller bike is going to have VERY different characteristics from a Busa or any other Sportbike." Precisely the point. However, they will still turn and brake like almost any other motorcycle. Again, it is the very fact that smaller bikes (like the Ninja 250, CR500, SV650 and others) are more forgiving and easier to excert control over that makes them better choices, just as a Cessana Skyhawk is a logical first step to learning how to fly a Citation.

5) "And even if the person rode that smaller bike for 10 years, there's nothing written in stone that says he won't get on the Busa and wreck it the first day." Of course not. Who said they couldn't? Nobody is saying that "something bad is gonna happen if you by a Busa first." No, the message is "your going to be safer and ultimately enjoy the bike more if you start on a smaller bike'.

6) "To me the MATURITY (not age, but the way a person handles himself) is the most important thing when considering a bike like the Busa or any other bike with similar capabilities.
"
Maturity is great, but what does this have to do with ability? "Maturity"-based arguments imply the entire risk of big-bore sport-bikes comes from the throttle, and if you don't open the throttle, you'll be OK. That's nonsense. The risk is from being able to avoid accidents, regardless of their root cause. Speed is only one factor amongst many.

7) "As long as you realize the capabilities of the bike you are riding, and the limitations of the skill you have AS a rider, I think a Busa would be a fine first bike." Again, how does anyone measure the capabilties of modern big-bore sport-bikes WITHOUT a frame of reference? If this theory were correct, then we should all learn to drive in Vipers. Pilots would learn to fly in F-14s. Don't you see anything fundamentaly flawed in that argument?

Please note that I am not an "elitist". In over twenty-four years of riding, I have seen more people leave the sport because they start riding a "scarry" bike than I have seen for accident injuries. The number is literally in the hundreds. I can't count the number of people that I saw, in a brief stint as an riding instructor, borrow smaller bikes for classes.

I want people to buy Hayabusas and ZX-12Rs, because I will then have more people to ride with. Also, the bikes will continue to improve as more people buy them. This means that people have to feel confident, have fun and not loose control of the damned things.

Make no mistake: I want people to ride these kind of bikes. I am not trying to make the person that asked the question "feel bad", or even not get a big-bore sport-bike. I am simply suggesting to them to learn how in a way that will allow them to have the most confidence and enjoyment.

Mike

[hooken203]

I had the fastest production bike when I was 22 years old GS1100E I survived.If I would have asked the same question back then I would have gotten maybe all the same answers.
like dont do it its to big to fast start smaller. Thats no fun.
Now Im 44 and after riding the busa for a while sometimes I think I might have been better off with it when I was 22.
Just use you head when you ride. You can control the power of this bike all ya got to do is ride it.

[Dangerously]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (amsctalx @ April 20 2003,4:31)]***With all due respect to my esteemed compatriots that started riding street bikes on Hayabusas...***

Fighter pilots start out F/A-18s, right?

No.

Usually something propeller-driven (c172, or maybe a turboprop), then T-38, with a LOT of simulator time for each, then up to the more advanced aircraft simulator (f16 or whatever), then the aircraft. It's much cheaper & safer to have someome wash out or 'crash' simulator, along with learning all the procedures for that particular aircraft.

[FLCN72]

Why not got get a used CB500, SV650, or something equally inexpensive? You'll more than likely be able to resell it for about what you paid, since they are just about depreciated out. You aren't going to be out very much money at all and very little time.

Keep that little bike while you work through your low speed turning, clutch control, and all that other jazz. Most of us drop a bike a few times when we are first learning street riding or just now returning to it after a long break. It is a lot cheaper to drop that used naked bike at 2 MPH in your driveway than it is to let the shiny new Busa go down.

You've got plenty of time. Keep the little one for a couple of months and you've still got more than half of the Summer to enjoy the Busa. Keep the little one for the whole season and you still have next season and every one after for the Busa.

[Kerberos]

1) "You can kill yourself just as easy on an RM250 as a Busa."
Someone can "kill themselves' with a butter-knife. The point is that a smaller, lighter and less powerful bike is easier to learn riding fundamentals with. Period. Ask top-level racers and riding instructors.

2) "You know your limits and what you are and are not capable of."
Precisely how does someone know their limits prior to practicing any activity? This is a key point right here. New riders don't[/quote]

I of course dissagree. you say "learning riding fundamentals".
There is only one riding fundamental. DON'T fall down. The bike at the point of balance weighs nothing so to compare a "lighter bike to a heavier one" is a moot point. They weigh the same when upright. Common sense. New street riders know exactly what their reason is for their obtaining a bike. The human body combined with the brain is capable of being taught anything. To learn to ride a busa or something lighter makes no difference. If someone has never ridden a bicycle before should learn to ride a bicycle first before a motorcycle. But if they have, as most have, then the principal of balance is identical. A 500cc 0r 650cc still weghs 300 + lbs. So just because the busa weighs 500 lbs, not many people can hold either one up when the balance point is lost.

One knows their limits through life experiences. it doesnt take years and years for this. All activities are intertwined. from buttering bread to riding a motorcycle. One knows if they are coordinated or clumsy. Careless or cautious. There are many people that have never ridden and will never ride a motorcycle because they know they do not have the talent for it.

A person that has ridden bicycles, driven manual transmssion cars, is cautious by nature and has a good sense of balance can ride anything. starting smaller is not necessary.

If a person has not ridden bicycles, then they should learn to ride bicycles first.

If a person has never driven a manual transmission should learn on four wheels first. A clutch is a clutch is a clutch so to speak.

If a person has no regard for safety and the rights of others then they should not even butter their own bread.

If you have never even ridden a dirt bike then I would suggest to get a dirt bike, gear up, take a course and go fall in the desert a bunch of times. Then you can ride anything.

But for someone who has ridden a dirt bike, go get the busa. You wont have any problems with the mechanical control. If a 6 year old child can ride a xr50 , then it is an insult to say a 22 year old adult that has ridden dirt bikes is not capable or ready for a busa.

The real crux of the biscuit is that people know what their limits are in all matters. People use fear to judge their edge. If one is not afraid that generally speaking they will do just fine.

[MET]

All of us can be like a 6 year old sometimes. A 6 year old does not know fear because they have not experienced it. We forget at times, don't loose certain fears, it will keep you healthy.

[Revlis]

OK well this discusion is going to new lengths in an attempt to define in type the variables involved in the Bike-Rider-age-skill-traffic equation.

I don't think this is all that hard. *IT definatly comes down to just a few things...

<span style='colorrangered'>Know your Motivations</span>, Why do you want a Sportbike, Why do you want a Busa Specifically? *Don't get sucked into the Poser-Hype, "Worlds Fastest" Doesn't really mean Sh^t in the real world. *Little things like SUV's, Gravel, and LEO's see to that. *
<span style='colorrangered'>Know your Limits</span>, Don't think you know, but really know, be honest. *You see Busas in the Paper all of the time for sale with 800, 1400, 2000, miles being sold as "New Baby on the Way" "Moving must sell", etc... Alot of this is BS, these folks bought the things for their "Pose" value, or in an attempt to capture an image, only after riding them do they realize that they are in over their heads. *
*The insurance industry doesn't just pull numbers out of the Air, they base the rates we pay on statistics, and statistically young inexperianced riders <span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>WILL</span></span> toast themselves on liter plus bikes, period. *Not all obviously but the evidence is there. *

<span style='colorrangered'>Most Importantly, KNOW YOURSELF</span>, *Deep down inside you know if you have the...Maturity, Mechanical Inclination, and Riding Ability to handle a bike like the Busa.
Oh one more thing, New Rider on a Busa, little or no experiance on a bike? *Be ready to have your ass handed to you by every more experianced rider out there. *On just about anything from a Harley to a CBR 600F4.
*And I am not just talking about out on a track, I am saying that the Busa will amplify every little rookie mistake you make, manuvering in a parking lot, or just sitting at a light, the Weight, Length, physical size, and Power will conspire against you to make you look well...like you are in over your head...

That being said, like I mentioned previously the Busa has great power, great handling, and is only a beast if you want it to be. The throttle works both ways. *As a parting thought I will add that <span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'><span style='colorrangered'>You WILL lay down your first bike at least once</span></span>, maybe more than once and that is an expensive proposition on a busa or any sport bike for that matter.
I am pretty much with Kerberos though, It's just that you might have more fun on a smaller, less expensive...Maybe less intimidating bike initially.

[Just let me ride]

DAMN STRAIGHT that's why i started out on dirt, broken bones are easier to deal with when you're 13 than a hospital stay and missing work

[cache]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (canIdream? @ April 19 2003,6:24)]okay here goes a thrashing from you to me, and yes ive read almost everything in the first-time void area:

I gotta ask:

is your post rhetorical? this is what the first-time void forum is for.

[canIdream?]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (cache @ April 21 2003,11:27)]

I gotta ask:

is your post rhetorical? this is what the first-time void forum is for.

no, i wanted true opinions on this ordeal with my specific scenario from anyone who cared, when i said ive read everything in the first-time void area, i meant everybody's opinions in general, not specified to the criteria ive listed, but i guess it makes no difference because its all looking the same now, but i appreciate everybody's opinions.

Did i break a rule? im sorry if i posted in the wrong area, i promise to keep all rhetoric in its predetermined forum

[Deputy]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Revlis @ April 20 2003,12:55)]*As a parting thought I will add that <span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'><span style='colorrangered'>You WILL lay down your first bike at least once</span></span>, maybe more than once and that is an expensive proposition on a busa or any sport bike for that matter.

And here we have another statement that is NOT written in stone by any stretch. I have NEVER laid ANY of my bikes down. The guys I ride with have NEVER laid any of their bikes down. I don't know where folks get off dropping these scare tactics on others, but they simply aren't true. That's not to say it WON'T happen at some time in my future, but I'm 53 and have avoided that situation so far.
My training on bikes was never formal (there WERE no riding schools back when I first started) and consisted of a ride on the back of my buddies 125 CC Sears Allstate bike while he showed and described how each control worked. Then he jumped off and said "take it" and I got on and put it in gear and rode away. It took me a little time to get everything synchronized, but after a few minutes I was riding just fine. BTW...that was NOT the first bike I owned. My first bike I owned was a 1200 CC Harley Superglide. So I went from a basic indoctrination of what controls do what straight to a bike that weighed around 4 times what I did.

I NEVER laid that bike down nor have I ever laid down any of the Harleys or any other bikes I've owned. Kerb is exactly right...if you know how to ride a bicycle, then riding a motorcycle becomes a snap. If you've already ridden a dirt bike, then you ALREADY have the fundamentals mastered and are ahead of the game. We are talking the basics now...not driving like a maniac through twisties or attempting 500 foot wheelies. As to riding in traffic...there is no way to duplicate that in a school. You have to EXPERIENCE it to get an understanding of it.

A few more items on this "start small" BS...
How long must a rider ride a "small" (we STILL have NO idea how "small" small is) bike? One year? Five years? Ten Years? Twenty years? And should it be a progressive move upwards in bike size? Say...start with a 125, 250, 500, 600, 750, 1000, 1200, etc etc etc? WHO is going to pay for all those bikes? How long should each bike be ridden before "moving up"?
Can a person jump from a 125 to a 750 and then a 1800?
Or are engine sizes not important? Are we going to judge "small" by weight, horsepower, CC size, type of bike, purpose of bike, etc etc? Gee...just a FEW variables there to complicate things. I really don't give two ****s what they do or say in Europe. Their style of riding on the street may be completely different from what we do in the states. Certainly their laws and regulations are different.

If people leave the sport because they ride a "scarey" bike...I say good. I'd rather have them tooting around in a "non-scarey" car than trying to ride something that has them crapping in their pants and possibly endangering themselves or others. Very likely they would be scared in a smaller bike just as much as a Busa. Scared is GOOD when it prevets you from riding something that your maturity and common sense tells you you don't like or can't handle. Not everyone is comfortable riding a Busa or any other motorcycle for that matter.

Dep

[canIdream?]

my kind of thinking

[Revlis]

I don't know where folks get off dropping these scare tactics on others...[/quote]

No Scare tactic Deputy, (Didn't mean to scare you with the big red letters) * *just a statement of what I have seen to be a truth. *Congratulations on never wrecking a bike...not even a little dirt bike...Wow. *And NONE of your Buddies...Thats pretty wild...I am speaking from years of reading, and personal experiance, and pretty much everything I have EVER read says you are the exception to the first bike dump rule.

I have never layed anything down on the street myself, but I don't have fingers enough to count the number of times I have been eating mud, dirt or grass off road. *From the sound of it, *CanIdream has had plenty of time in the dirt as well, I think that planting your ass in the dirt can teach you more about riding than any number of hours of "safe" street experiance. *It's a good place to figure out how things feel at the limit, a great classroom. *

The size thing, from my POV isn't really about displacement, but about physical weight, and the amount of plastic wrapped around most of your sport bikes. *My recommendation would be like a Honda 919, or maybe an FZ-1, something you can tip over without having to file an insurance claim...Great fast bikes, not as expensive if you do something silly...

Does the Busa make a good sensible FIRST bike NO, it really is that simple if for no other reason than it's appetite for rear tires, and serious money for repairs if it just falls off it's side stand. *It's not rocket science. *Does it make a good first STREET BIKE, Maybe, depends on the rider, thats all...

The whole thing is DOES boil down to the individual though... Absolutly. *Some can, some shouldn't but do anyway, and some cannot.*No it's not a hard N fast rule, but I appreciate your vehemence it's good to stand by your opinions and thats "where I get off."

[The Oracle]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Kerberos @ April 20 2003,2:05)]&lt;snip&gt; I love my bike. When we met, I knew she was perfect. How she looked, felt, everything about her. &lt;snip&gt;

Kerberos gave me a woody!

CID, Ride what you want, when you want! Dreaming is why we all have what we have. Without dreams, where would we be??!!

That old myth about everyone who rides will wreck is BS! Ok, ok, so I have dropped a couple of bikes in my 16 years of riding, but that doesn't mean that everyone does! My uncle was a NYC moto cop for 20+ years and never went down once. And, he rode in the snow for 3 months each year on a heavy HOG!

I am a hemophiliac and my doctors (and parents, and friends) have been telling me for 36 years what I CAN'T do! And, I am still here, even though I: ride BMX bikes, skateboard, ice skate, ride motorcycles (quickly even), rock climb, mountain climb, sky dive, snow board, race cars, and even study martial arts!

Don't let the man hold you down. Live life. And, by all means... Enjoy every single second!

PEACE