Another Water Injection Question Thread

[GXR1147]

it doesnt respond to a lean situation per say. but a flow issue on the water/meth injection side. either to much flow from a leak or not enough from a clog or pump related issue etc. ideally its catching the issue as its happening, before it travels to the chambers and screws things up. i cant see having no attempt at stopping a failure ever being better then having something/anything. so is there a provision in the ECM for a ground signal to switch to a second map, that could be used to pull alot of timing out and adding fuel or some combination to keep things from becoming catastrophic. cheap insurance is better then none.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Purchasing a quality water injection setup is the first step. Running out of liquid would be an issue, yes. Even getting a setup that responds to flow is still going to be like closing the barn door after an issue has already occurred. A level sensor in the tank makes sense, as does a turbo owner that knows his bike before he rolls out. Checking your water/meth level gets added to the list of other things you should check before you go out to play. There is more insurance in a quality build and quality components, and also in an attentive owner than any instrumentation that tells you something happened after the fact.

 

[GXR1147]

Oh no doubt. I don't disagree at all on those topics. But I've have learned that if mankind has made it, it can break. Suzuki did my build being it's a mainly factory motor, lol and you did my tune. After 2 years or so, she purrs along down the road. But you warned me that boost was addictive. And now here I am getting greedy, lol.

 

[jermzfree]

You still need something to read O2, the stock ecu won't do it. In over thirty years on turbo bikes, I can tell you that in my experience things happen very quickly on turbos, especially Busas. I wouldn't put much faith in any failsafe device with the idea that it is somehow going to save the day.
By the time that setup reacts to a critical lean condition and sends a signal to pull timing and dump fuel, the damage will already be done, IMHO.

Frank you aren't alluding that the RCC can read o2 and react to a lean spike? If it does im interested.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Frank you aren't alluding that the RCC can read o2 and react to a lean spike? If it does im interested.

No, sorry, I am not.

 

[jermzfree]

No, sorry, I am not.

Ok my mistake. Sorry if im hijacking this post but...... can a fail safe device help alert you to a small problem before it becomes devastating? I melted pistons doing 150 when the fuel pump quit. I imagine the best fail safe device wouldn't help in a drastic lean condition like this, but if the fuel pressure was starting to drop under load due to clogged filter or tired fuel pump, might a fail safe device catch it in time?

 

[POWERHOUSE]

I struggle to imagine why someone with a turbo bike would treat their bike so badly that the fuel filter would clog, or that they would have a tired fuel pump. Generally speaking, if you set a parameter outside of which a device might shut the bike down entirely or a big red light on your dash would come on, would that save the bike? Maybe, maybe not. When you melted your pistons, your fuel pump did not quit entirely. If the fuel stopped entirely, the motor would not be damaged at all. You had some fuel flow, that's why things melted. I will bet your fuel pressure dropped way before you made that run. In that case, a simple fuel pressure gauge would have alerted you to a problem while you were still off boost. In any case, a fail safe system would complicate the build with no real benefit, IMO. I still believe a quality build with quality components and a good tune is the key to dependability.

 

[GXR1147]

Ok my mistake. Sorry if im hijacking this post but...... can a fail safe device help alert you to a small problem before it becomes devastating? I melted pistons doing 150 when the fuel pump quit. I imagine the best fail safe device wouldn't help in a drastic lean condition like this, but if the fuel pressure was starting to drop under load due to clogged filter or tired fuel pump, might a fail safe device catch it in time?

AEM's failsafe set up (water injection related, I think they have an O2 based one also but don't quote me) for the water injection system monitors flow rate of your water/meth. It gives a warning light and maybe an alarm as well(?). But it also provides a ground on/off wire that can be hooked up to a boost controller to cut boost off or a lower level or to the second map pin (21 on harness side iirc) on our ECM to trigger the second "safety map". As frank said, it would add another level to the tuning and as such adds to the complexity of it. I dont see it as a bad thing at all and I'm no expert so I'm not sure what can be done on the second map (fuel or timing) that could prevent something catastrophic from happening. That's a question better left for Frank to answer.

 

[jermzfree]

I struggle to imagine why someone with a turbo bike would treat their bike so badly that the fuel filter would clog, or that they would have a tired fuel pump. Generally speaking, if you set a parameter outside of which a device might shut the bike down entirely or a big red light on your dash would come on, would that save the bike? Maybe, maybe not. When you melted your pistons, your fuel pump did not quit entirely. If the fuel stopped entirely, the motor would not be damaged at all. You had some fuel flow, that's why things melted. I will bet your fuel pressure dropped way before you made that run. In that case, a simple fuel pressure gauge would have alerted you to a problem while you were still off boost. In any case, a fail safe system would complicate the build with no real benefit, IMO. I still believe a quality build with quality components and a good tune is the key to dependability.

I totally agree a good proper build is the best way to have a reliable bike. If a fail safe device adds a good second level of safety then I think it is worth having. It sounds like you don't think they do much good. In my situation I bought my kit used and didn't find out the pump was on the way out until after the fact. I had gauges and totally missed the lean condition under boost with my eyes getting sucked to the back of my skull!

 

[michael parris heuberger]

I struggle to imagine why someone with a turbo bike would treat their bike so badly that the fuel filter would clog, or that they would have a tired fuel pump. Generally speaking, if you set a parameter outside of which a device might shut the bike down entirely or a big red light on your dash would come on, would that save the bike? Maybe, maybe not. When you melted your pistons, your fuel pump did not quit entirely. If the fuel stopped entirely, the motor would not be damaged at all. You had some fuel flow, that's why things melted. I will bet your fuel pressure dropped way before you made that run. In that case, a simple fuel pressure gauge would have alerted you to a problem while you were still off boost. In any case, a fail safe system would complicate the build with no real benefit, IMO. I still believe a quality build with quality components and a good tune is the key to dependability.

I totally agree a good proper build is the best way to have a reliable bike. If a fail safe device adds a good second level of safety then I think it is worth having. It sounds like you don't think they do much good. In my situation I bought my kit used and didn't find out the pump was on the way out until after the fact. I had gauges and totally missed the lean condition under boost with my eyes getting sucked to the back of my skull!

I struggle to imagine why someone with a turbo bike would treat their bike so badly that the fuel filter would clog, or that they would have a tired fuel pump. Generally speaking, if you set a parameter outside of which a device might shut the bike down entirely or a big red light on your dash would come on, would that save the bike? Maybe, maybe not. When you melted your pistons, your fuel pump did not quit entirely. If the fuel stopped entirely, the motor would not be damaged at all. You had some fuel flow, that's why things melted. l bet your fuel pressure dropped way before you made that run. In that case, a simple fuel pressure gauge would have alerted you to a problem while you were still off boost. In any case, a fail safe system would complicate the build with no real benefit, IMO. I still believe a quality build with quality components and a good tune is the key to dependability.

I totally agree a good proper build is the best way to have a reliable bike. If a fail safe device adds a good second level of safety then I think it is worth having. It sounds like you don't think they do much good. In my situation I bought my kit used and didn't find out the pump was on the way out until after the fact. I had gauges and totally missed the lean condition under boost with my eyes getting sucked to the back of my skull!

On the fuel pump fail does this happen often? On an F 5000 Lola I ran 3 pumps 2 on all the time and one switched for back up never had a low fuel pressure but also had more space. All 3 pumps fit behind my seat.

 

[jermzfree]

On the fuel pump fail does this happen often? On an F 5000 Lola I ran 3 pumps 2 on all the time and one switched for back up never had a low fuel pressure but also had more space. All 3 pumps fit behind my seat.

I haven't heard of many turbo fuel pump failures online, and I did a lot of research after it happened to me. I came to believe the fmu in the stage 1 kits adds stress to the pump, pushing it to 90 psi making a failure more likely than with a 1/1 regulator, but could be wrong.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

I haven't heard of many turbo fuel pump failures online, and I did a lot of research after it happened to me. I came to believe the fmu in the stage 1 kits adds stress to the pump, pushing it to 90 psi making a failure more likely than with a 1/1 regulator, but could be wrong.

I have never seen a fuel pump failure, regardless of regulator. A causal correlation between fmus and 1:1 regulators cannot be established when failures are virtually
non existent. You are the first I've heard of, and you belong to an exclusive club, unfortunately. I hope you replaced everything . . .

 

[jermzfree]

Now that I think about it, I never did post my pump failure online. Perhaps others too suffer in silence with this debilitating premature pump emission. I always wondered if a fail safe would have caught it in time. Like Frank said, it was probably dropping pressure way before it melted down. No way to know for sure as I did not have a data logger. The pump was giving me warning signs it was ready to shoot it load that entire summer though. But got misdiagnosed as a classic case of vapor lock. Perhaps if I were an expert I might have picked up on other nuances the pump was doing. But there was no doubt the pump caused the meltdown as it was diagnosed right in front of me by a reputable mechanic. I have since gone with an ecu flash and a 1/1 regulator and couldn't be happier.
When I go to 300 hp I will be relying on my water injection system when under full boost. I currently have a two light system I made. One light is connected to the pump and comes on when the pump turns on. The other light is connected to a pressure sensor between the injector nozzle and the solenoid. It turns the other light off when the injector sees pressure. When running correctly one light comes on (pump light) and the other light goes off (pressure light). And they switch immediately when off boost. At one time the injector became partially blocked, and the pressure light would stay lit for an second when off boost. After a week the light would stay on for 30 seconds after a boost run, indicating a near complete blockage. If I did not have any idea the injector was becoming blocked, and I was relying on the water injection to prevent ping then guess what? kaboom!! That is where I think a fail safe or flow meter might come in handy. Its easier to see a big blinking OH poop! light rather than watching the afr when going real fast, at least for me it is. And of course its always a good idea to be as proactive as possible, and clean the injector every so often.

 

[GXR1147]

Now that I think about it, I never did post my pump failure online. Perhaps others too suffer in silence with this debilitating premature pump emission. I always wondered if a fail safe would have caught it in time. Like Frank said, it was probably dropping pressure way before it melted down. No way to know for sure as I did not have a data logger. The pump was giving me warning signs it was ready to shoot it load that entire summer though. But got misdiagnosed as a classic case of vapor lock. Perhaps if I were an expert I might have picked up on other nuances the pump was doing. But there was no doubt the pump caused the meltdown as it was diagnosed right in front of me by a reputable mechanic. I have since gone with an ecu flash and a 1/1 regulator and couldn't be happier.
When I go to 300 hp I will be relying on my water injection system when under full boost. I currently have a two light system I made. One light is connected to the pump and comes on when the pump turns on. The other light is connected to a pressure sensor between the injector nozzle and the solenoid. It turns the other light off when the injector sees pressure. When running correctly one light comes on (pump light) and the other light goes off (pressure light). And they switch immediately when off boost. At one time the injector became partially blocked, and the pressure light would stay lit for an second when off boost. After a week the light would stay on for 30 seconds after a boost run, indicating a near complete blockage. If I did not have any idea the injector was becoming blocked, and I was relying on the water injection to prevent ping then guess what? kaboom!! That is where I think a fail safe or flow meter might come in handy. Its easier to see a big blinking OH poop! light rather than watching the afr when going real fast, at least for me it is. And of course its always a good idea to be as proactive as possible, and clean the injector every so often.

We come from the same school of thought. Any type of indication of a problem is better then not even having an option to know. Especially when beingba street bike and seeing all sorts of conditions where a track (drag) bike is either on or off. Your dash is really busy. Do you have bar risers like soopys or something in order to get that gauge mounted over the stem like that? And I'm assuming the lights you were talking about are the ones at the top of your dash area. The solid one on the left then the flashing one on the right? So if I understand you properly and read your lights properly, your pump is always (ignition hook up?) on even when the demand isn't there for the water/meth?

 

[jermzfree]

We come from the same school of thought. Any type of indication of a problem is better then not even having an option to know. Especially when beingba street bike and seeing all sorts of conditions where a track (drag) bike is either on or off. Your dash is really busy. Do you have bar risers like soopys or something in order to get that gauge mounted over the stem like that? And I'm assuming the lights you were talking about are the ones at the top of your dash area. The solid one on the left then the flashing one on the right? So if I understand you properly and read your lights properly, your pump is always (ignition hook up?) on even when the demand isn't there for the water/meth?

There were handlebar risers which made it a lot easier to mount the gauges. The two red lights on the top are the water injection. The one on the right lights up when the pump is pumping, and the one on the left turns off when the pressure sensor gets pressure. Sort of like the oil pressure light that turns off when you fire it up your bike.