How much do we know?

raydog

Enjoying 1 road at a time
Donating Member
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If we were to graph all org members based on how much work, maintenance and adjustments we do on our own bikes, One end of the scale would be folks that just ride em and depend on others to do ALL of the work, even tire pressures! The other end would be people that do their own machining and create their own parts, most of us would be somewhere in the middle........what an extreme graph it would be , however.

For me, there are some things about Hayabusa mechanics (not people, the mechanism) that, once you learn it, you know it (for example, oil level, reservoir levels, etc.). Other systems, however, seem to have endless knowledge required....the more you know, the more you realize how little you know! My example (and the focal point of this post) is SUSPENSION adjustment and equipment. Sure, there are great posts on the org on how to adjust and dial in your Busa suspension and they have helped me greatly over the years. BUT, as I went to the aftermarket and began riding harder and faster, I realized the limitless aspects of suspension improvement. After 5 years of development, for example, I have my red Haybus Busa really dialed in, thanks to other's expertise and the aftermarket, BTW (notice I didn't say "fully dialed in", I said "really dialed in", you can always better it!).
I should note that many Busa owners live very fulfilling lives with their STOCK Busa suspensions, I can say though, at a point, one can become aware of OEM shortcomings, it just depends on you, if you are the type that explores past "that point".

Anyways, since I had done so much to my red Busa in terms of suspension r&d, when I brought the Superbyke to the track, my ability to id the OEM suspension shortcomings was pretty darn good and convinced me of my need to go to full RaceTec suspenders on the black Superbyke. In a future post I'll try to compare hiper riding with OEM suspension vrs the RaceTec set up and describe why it's better. It's important to note that any improvement is directly transferable to the street.....including additional safety, I believe. The RaceTec rear shock has the Gold valving, their "blue fluid", Eibach spring, etc. The black one is the stock one. One other thing 'cause it's always asked, why RaceTec and not an Ohlins?....because a full RaceTec cost about $600 and the Ohlins probably about $1200+...I don't think I'll ever be good enough to be able to tell the difference so it's a value thing for me (I am good enough to tell the difference between OEM and RaceTec!). Finally, RaceTec isn't the only show in town for quality suspension improvement, there are other really competent companies out there. Doyle

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I am going to enjoy this Ray! I am ok with getting me in the ball park and close to dialed in on the busa, and I know my 09 GSXR 1k needs suspension work. It isnt right for me stock. I have helped other get their street bikes right for street use, but there comes to point where its time to upgrade the stock items. The problem is no one really knows when that time comes, or until you wreck for some, me included, to upgrade the suspension. Then to learn how to tune it to your needs. I have read books, watched video's, and listened to some skilled suspension tweakers! That word "FEEL" become used so much! I feel this, and I feel that, and I think I feel this doing this..... A note book comes in handy!:laugh:
 
I've typed 4 replies now (make that 5), and erased them all. Trying to word a reply to this thread is exactly like trying to make my bike handle like I want it to. This emoticon ":banghead:" pretty well puts it in a nutshell..
 
I think alot of people don't understand what suspension can do for a bike. They also don't understand what they are "riding through" or in really bad cases how much danger they are in. With the stock suspension (which I way overloaded), there are many places where the bike is very lose and has no feel at all. However I just rode through it, knowing that many have made this or that turn at even faster speeds. I now know that if you don't feel the contact with the road you should not be doing what you're doing. There were many handling irrigularities that were all due to suspension:

1. For example, sometimes the bike felt like it translaed sideways when it hit a bump. The bike would sort of push up and shake the front end when braking hard and dipping into the corner.

2. I had the stock setup really stiff due to it being overloaded. This made it lose traction really easily. I was amazed at the shove I got accelerating when the suspension was fixed.

3. Another thing people wouldn't associate with suspension is better braking feel. Turns out getting the suspension right was the best thing I ever did to the brakes! They feel stronger and I'm much more confident with them, especially hard stops.

I believe I can tell the difference between Racetech and Ohlins, having had both (Racetech on a Bandit, Works Performance too). But I can't really say the Ohlins are that much better in real porformance enhancing areas. I don't think you need to spend a fortune to get most of these benifits, just getting the correct springs and settings on the OEM will go a long way to improving the bikes handling & safety.

AS for settings, it took me a couple days to figure it out. There are just too many variations to get it dialed in without some real experience. So I paid for a setup and then clicked everything back to 0 so I could mark the settings. The guy who did mine took about 20 minutes and it was amazing. I can't describe to you the instant difference in the bike. The best description I can think of is if you ever watch a lion closing in for the kill on Wild Kingdom and while they are twisting and turning all over the place the lion's head and eyes are perfectly still!
 
Suspension is one thing I need an experts help with, got mine done at Computrac by Kent. I give much props for you all dialing this in yourselves. Nice work!
 
On a recommendation from TuffBusa, I bought a set of videos from Catalyst Reaction Suspension Services. A LOT of info in them on the whole suspension setting theory. I used this to get my bike as close as possible with the (re-sprung for my weight) stock shock and fork. All my tire wear patterns that they talk about are pretty well in line, and I can feel every irregularity in the pavement through the front wheel, right down to a pebble half the size of a marble. Only ongoing problem I have, is turn in. I'm in pretty fair physical condition, but the Busa is a handful to get turned into a corner quick. At the track it doesn't feel like such a big deal, but in the confines of a 12 ft lane, going into a signed 30mph corner at 70, turn in is the sketchiest part of the deal. Once in the corner everything goes as planned. Lot of this is probably due to not going into the turn on the brakes like I can on the track. On the road I'm maybe scrubbing off 10mph (can't be going around at 100+, never know when you might run across a wandering county or state), and am off the brake when I tip it in. It sometimes gets to be an exercise in frustration.
Tires can make a big difference in feel and feed back too. It's amazing the difference in the old Michelin Pilot Powers and the new Dunlop Q2.
But, before I'd throw 3 G at Ohlins stuff on the Busa, I'd rather get a 600, much better platform to start with. You can put all the shiny gold stuff on the Busa you want, but there's not much you can do about the 550lbs and 59" wheelbase.
 
On a recommendation from TuffBusa, I bought a set of videos from Catalyst Reaction Suspension Services. A LOT of info in them on the whole suspension setting theory. I used this to get my bike as close as possible with the (re-sprung for my weight) stock shock and fork. All my tire wear patterns that they talk about are pretty well in line, and I can feel every irregularity in the pavement through the front wheel, right down to a pebble half the size of a marble. Only ongoing problem I have, is turn in. I'm in pretty fair physical condition, but the Busa is a handful to get turned into a corner quick. At the track it doesn't feel like such a big deal, but in the confines of a 12 ft lane, going into a signed 30mph corner at 70, turn in is the sketchiest part of the deal. Once in the corner everything goes as planned. Lot of this is probably due to not going into the turn on the brakes like I can on the track. On the road I'm maybe scrubbing off 10mph (can't be going around at 100+, never know when you might run across a wandering county or state), and am off the brake when I tip it in. It sometimes gets to be an exercise in frustration.
Tires can make a big difference in feel and feed back too. It's amazing the difference in the old Michelin Pilot Powers and the new Dunlop Q2.
But, before I'd throw 3 G at Ohlins stuff on the Busa, I'd rather get a 600, much better platform to start with. You can put all the shiny gold stuff on the Busa you want, but there's not much you can do about the 550lbs and 59" wheelbase.

Just some thoughts, Yes the Hayabusa is a handful due to its size and weight, You then compare riding the track to the road. I personally wouldn't ride my bike on the road like I ride on the track. It's not safe for you or any other motorists. The Hayabusa was designed to speed and be semi comfortable while having the ability to turn and brake. It does these all fairly well with speed being the focus. A 1k liter bike it is not nor will it ever be, you cannot compare them in regards to anything but grunt and speed. Things can be improved and performance upgraded but nothing can be added to or taken off a Hayabusa that has the impact of good riding ability, judgement and set-up. Like you said, get a 600 and toss that around. However, riding a 600 is a completely different game. Keeping her up in the double digit rpm's to keep up is real work as on the big girl it's more point and shoot. Both fun IMO. Sorry to ramble.
 
I just wrote a page here and my computer decided to reboot for an update and lost it all....I'm so mad I need to do something else before I throw this thing out into the yard.
 
Great Thread Doyle! It brings some important issues to the forefront.

Let me begin by saying "Suspension Tuning is as foreign to most riders as women from mars"! Upgrading the suspension is never a bad idea but in my view it's not the best place for a street rider that does a few track days annually to invest their extra $$$ unless money is not an issue. This is my eighth season wearing an instructor vest. I have worked with hundreds and maybe in excess of a thousand students. I have learned that "Rider Training" to upgrade (As Matt MLadin says) the nut behind the bars is by far the most important aspect of motorcycle performance. All that fancy suspension without the training required to properly use it does little for the rider. As you well know, suspension won't save a rider when they make mistakes. Bikes don't crash - Riders crash!

The stock suspension (Properly tuned) on most modern sport bikes exceeds the riders ability to control the bike. The absolute most important aspect of motorcycle performance is the software (The Rider). The way to upgrade the software is through "Rider Training". The results of one on one rider training at the end of a single day is amazing. It's a bit spendy but the results lasts forever.

Ross DeLong who owns the track record at our local track "Pacific Raceway" rides his bone stock GSXR street ride within 3-4 seconds of the track record on Race Tires. Ross does all his own suspension set up and he spanks all but a few of the fastest racers with a license plate and taped up lights.

Another example of Rider Training vs Suspension is our very own "GregBob" on his Gen I busa (See photo below). Greg has developed into the best busa rider I have witnessed at the track. He rides in the advanced group and he's far from being slow. Has incredible body position, in great physical condition and throws that fat chick around as if it was a rag doll. Greg showed up in 07 on his newly purchased busa. He was so green he was almost scary. And yes, he crashed more than once. For some reason I felt the need to save Greg from his own self destruction. I began giving Greg a little time at every event he attended. Greg was the best rider I ever coached. Greg looked me in the eye when I was talking, paid close attention with intensity, never interrupted to tell me why he did this or that (You'd be shocked at how many riders want to explain why their uncle Robert who rode a harley for 40 years taught them how to blah-blah-blah) then he would do his very best to implement the task I laid out. Greg was a pleasure to work with. Now the bastid is hard to keep up with. Last season I got him a job as an instructor and he gets lots of compliments as well as cash gratuities from many customers.

My point from this long and maybe boring post is, don't get caught up in all the hype on suspension improving your skills. It won't! Simple things like proper spring weight in order to reach proper sag and on some bikes adjusting the shim stack on the high speed compression (Especially the shock) can be beneficial. In my view, investing in aftermarket suspension and ignoring rider training is a bassacwards way of riding a motorcycle faster and safer as well as reduce the mistakes that lead to crashes.

Below is a photo of Ross Delong (Track record holder) on his GSXR street ride. Living/breathing proof you don't need aftermarket suspension to be fast.

The GregBob on his 06 busa giving the busa a good name at the track on bone stock suspension. Greg weighs in at 195 without leathers. Also proof that aftermarket is not mandatory to play with the big boys on your busa. Greg is no pup, he is 54 years since birth. Greg is on the left in the last photo.

Invest in the software "First"! Speed without skill usually doesn't end well, suspension or no.

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I just wrote a page here and my computer decided to reboot for an update and lost it all....I'm so mad I need to do something else before I throw this thing out into the yard.
Reminds me of the early '80's ctrl S often :laugh:
 
Great Thread Doyle! It brings some important issues to the forefront.

Let me begin by saying "Suspension Tuning is as foreign to most riders as women from mars"! Upgrading the suspension is never a bad idea but in my view it's not the best place for a street rider that does a few track days annually to invest their extra $$$ unless money is not an issue. This is my eighth season wearing an instructor vest. I have worked with hundreds and maybe in excess of a thousand students. I have learned that "Rider Training" to upgrade (As Matt MLadin says) the nut behind the bars is by far the most important aspect of motorcycle performance. All that fancy suspension without the training required to properly use it does little for the rider. As you well know, suspension won't save a rider when they make mistakes. Bikes don't crash - Riders crash!

And a great response on your part Steve....of course, my response I just had deleted into hyperspace made that point...all is trumped by rider skill. I must add, however, that on the path to getting all the ducks in a row re: motorcycle ownership and enjoyment, as one's skilz increase, so should the depth of the knowledge of the package that is being ridden. An example of that depth is the ability to listen and feel your scooter as it reacts to surface, wind, acceleration, braking, side forces and all the other variables. Books are written about our skills and our need to always learn, I am only speaking to the pleasure, satisfaction and world that is available with making a bike more capable. I would never intend to pit "rider training against suspension improvements"! Nor would I suggest that the aftermarket is a shortcut to learning to operate your motorcycle! I didn't need to put Braking rotors on my red Busa, the stock ones would probably be fine, but looking back, their lightness, looks and overall performance under intense conditions make me feel so much better when using them. Maybe I'm just the type that has to change things and maybe some aftermarket is just the placebo effect, but suspension improvements for me has been money well spent. Maybe folks like GregBob can part the waters all day on OEM suspension and I honor them...I just want to know that I can't blame anything except myself for my slow learning curve!
Anyways, I do think that upgrading any bike then acting like you are a better rider because of the upgrade is ill informed and dangerous. Doyle
 
Making parts today....swing by on the Superbyke...

I would Scott, but my wife just said she wants me to take her on the KLR to the rib cook-off......so, you know the rest! I do want to talk 2 u so I'll call this wk. Doyle
 
People should not think improving the bike and learning to ride better can't happen at the same time. Frankly, I would much rather have a bike that's more talented than I am than less talented than I am. You can learn to ride without going to a track or school, many riders have done it. I think a school is a better way to go as it's safer and there are people there who can guide you past painful and costly lessons I would personally much rather learn in a conversation with a coach than experience!

For many track guys going faster, or more specifically mastering the dynamics of riding, is the main goal of the sport. That's fine and I totally get it. Within that context, spending money on stuff that you can't maximize to go faster doesn't make a lot of sense. Get a $4K gixxer, add a full exhaust, proper springs, a good set of leathers and that's as much tool as you need to pursue motorcycling nirvana. The rest of the funds go to tires, gas, and fixing stuff you break getting faster.

However there are other sides of the sport. Touring is all about saddle time and experiencing the road. Learning how to pack, navagate, eat, survive at times, and make decisions about conditions are all learned skills that great touring riders learn. Yet, extreme riding skills like knee dragging are not required to be an exceptional touring rider. Another perspective is a deep love for the technology of motorcycles. I never wanted to be Rossi, I wanted to be Burgess (his mechanic). A big part of the grins I get from the sport come from making the bike as good as it can be. From this perspective Ohlins, CZ, & Brembo are a part of the fun of putting together the best Busa possible. The truth is I just wouldn't be happy being the fastest guy around on a stock bike.

I think many people look at bikes with top shelf parts and think the owner is trying to "buy talent" as Tuf puts it. There are no doubt many of those people out there. Heck the entire "show busa" circuit is about reducing technical function to aesthetic bling. But there are some of us who love a bike with "talent" because of that capability - whether or not we can fully exploit it.

Motorcycling is a dangerous sport. You never know when a situation will call for more skill than you can muster at that particular moment in time. We should all constantly work on our skills and get them to as high a level as we can. That's the best insurance you can get that you will enjoy a long and healthy riding life. But there's more to it than that.
 
I did not read much of this, But i know what people are talking about. Just think if every body got together and shared there opions on Tune ups, Suspession, Tires, Gearing, Clothing, And what ever made a bike faster and safer.

Chuck
 
Just think if every body got together and shared there opions on Tune ups, Suspession, Tires, Gearing, Clothing, And what ever made a bike faster and safer.

Add a few cases of beer to the opinion session, and it wouldn't be long till you had what's known as a brawl.:laugh:

You get 10 people together, and your going to get 10 different thoughts on all of the above..
 
Hey a six pack, And all my Buds and every body would be happy. You know what i mean. Cheech And Chong.
 
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