Gen I 2nd Gear Trans Pics

isiahstites

isiahstites

Registered
Well I have two motors in my garage that have second gear slip problems. Yesterday I tore one down to see if I could find the problem. I am posting these pictures as a conversation starter to maybe help others not to say that this is the exact issue. Plus I do not think I found one photo regarding these issues. I believe this part of the problem with these trans.

So post up what you know to help others with this common problem.

Backside of the shift forks look good, the far left front shift fork moves the trans into second gear.
100_9494.jpg



Now the fork on the right closest in the photo controls second gear. Doesn't look so good and definately isn't the same as the others. In the photo you see that the gear has been machining the fork. That is not good as I believe this will keep the gear from fully engaging. Which explains why a lot of people experience the trans jumping out of gear.
100_9493.jpg


For reference here is the trans in the upper part of the case. The gear set closest is what you want to look at in the next two photos. All the way to the left is second gear on the closet gear set, the number one gear and the number two gear mesh together to make second. In this picture the trans is in neutral.
100_9495.jpg



In this photos you can see the gears 1 & 2 meshed together, the trans is in second gear. You can also see the shift fork and where it would be machined if you could see the sides. I don't have any photos, but you also get a wear on the two gear dogs where they mess together and as it wears I would assume the second gear problems just become worse.
100_9496.jpg



I am not saying this is the exact problems, just sharing what I saw in my motor and my take on the subject. FYI the motor is and 06 with the 13k.
 
How do the dogs look? Unless your shift fork is bent, it shouldn't be causing the gear to slip out.... I had forks look like that on an old Katana. It was because the dogs were chewed up an kept forcing the gear out back towards the fork.
 
just had this fixed. i can tell you exactly what happens. as the "dogs" wear(from excessive pressure) they start to round off on the edges. when they get worn enough the forks cant hold them together anymore and the pressure forces the fork apart and lets the dogs slip.
thats where undercutting the dogs comes into play. you undercut them to give them more surface area to mesh together. also, always replace the shift fork if second fails. because when it starts the "death jump" the fork is bent and weakened whether you can see it or not
 
Every forum I've ever read over the years covering different bikes has had the same complaints about weak 2nd gears and how the manufacturers are to blame. Whats really to blame is the gap called neutral between first and 2nd that causes 2nd gear to take the most abuse of any gear, especially from abusive/sloppy/poor techinique and missed/jammed back into gear shifts. The only way to protect 2nd gear on any bike from abusive shifting damage is to completely design out the neutral gap. Or just use some common sense and shift them to last :thumbsup:
Another option is to keep hammering on them as you replace parts while blaming the manufacturers :laugh:
I find it interesting that through the years I've had riding/club buds that had 2nd gear issues on multiple brands of bikes, and others that never had any issues on bike after bike...and we all rode similiarly. I guess some guys must just get all the different manufacturers defective bikes...thats some crappy luck eh? :rofl:
Just sayin.......
 
saygbye said:
just had this fixed. i can tell you exactly what happens. as the "dogs" wear(from excessive pressure) they start to round off on the edges. when they get worn enough the forks cant hold them together anymore and the pressure forces the fork apart and lets the dogs slip.
thats where undercutting the dogs comes into play. you undercut them to give them more surface area to mesh together. also, always replace the shift fork if second fails. because when it starts the "death jump" the fork is bent and weakened whether you can see it or not
Click to expand...
Pretty good explanation. Note that "undercutting" the gear dogs puts a small ramp on the dogs. Under power, the gears are drawn together tighter by the ramps instead of rounding off. I don't know why the manufacturers don't machine them this way in the first place.
 
2Wheels2Live said:
Every forum I've ever read over the years covering different bikes has had the same complaints about weak 2nd gears and how the manufacturers are to blame. Whats really to blame is the gap called neutral between first and 2nd that causes 2nd gear to take the most abuse of any gear, especially from abusive/sloppy/poor techinique and missed/jammed back into gear shifts. The only way to protect 2nd gear on any bike from abusive shifting damage is to completely design out the neutral gap. Or just use some common sense and shift them to last :thumbsup:
Another option is to keep hammering on them as you replace parts while blaming the manufacturers :laugh:
I find it interesting that through the years I've had riding/club buds that had 2nd gear issues on multiple brands of bikes, and others that never had any issues on bike after bike...and we all rode similiarly. I guess some guys must just get all the different manufacturers defective bikes...thats some crappy luck eh? :rofl:
Just sayin.......
Click to expand...
I think there are two big contributors to the problems: sloppy 2nd gear engagement and casually letting your foot touch the shift lever while riding.

With the neutral between 1st and 2nd, you have a longer throw making this change. If you're not engaging 2nd fully, then it connects loosely and wants to jump out and back into neutral, rounding the gear dogs in the process. Now add shifting the bike under power plus the power of the Busa and you have a recipe for 2nd gear problems.

The other problem applies to all the gears. Some folks have big feet or they just have poor technique and they let their foot rest lightly on the gear shift lever all the time. This tends to wear out the shift forks early and will affect whatever gear the tranny is in at the time. Ridden properly, your foot should not touch that shift lever at all except when you are shifting.
 
Do you have pictures of the engine out ? and what you had to take apart to get to the trans? Is it a difficult process ?
 
Thanks for great pictures! I am always fascinated by inner workings of a tranny.

Also, a great point by 2Wheels2Live. I would add that clutchless upshifting promotes less stress on the tranny - even 1st to 2nd, and even at redline.
 
Just like driving with your hand on the shifter in a car.It applies pressure to the forks and eventually wears out the forks and syncros.Nice pictures.
 
2Wheels2Live said:
Every forum I've ever read over the years covering different bikes has had the same complaints about weak 2nd gears and how the manufacturers are to blame. Whats really to blame is the gap called neutral between first and 2nd that causes 2nd gear to take the most abuse of any gear, especially from abusive/sloppy/poor techinique and missed/jammed back into gear shifts. The only way to protect 2nd gear on any bike from abusive shifting damage is to completely design out the neutral gap. Or just use some common sense and shift them to last :thumbsup:
Another option is to keep hammering on them as you replace parts while blaming the manufacturers :laugh:
I find it interesting that through the years I've had riding/club buds that had 2nd gear issues on multiple brands of bikes, and others that never had any issues on bike after bike...and we all rode similiarly. I guess some guys must just get all the different manufacturers defective bikes...thats some crappy luck eh? :rofl:
Just sayin.......
Click to expand...

i guess that was a jab at me not knowing how to ride or something? if not sorry i took it the wrong way.
no one is saying the factory is to blame. however they could have easily undercut the gears and solved the problem. believe it or not a lot of people drag race these bikes(and suzuki knows it). missed shifts without an airshifter are a common occourance also. :rulez: yes its rider error but not everbody rides thier busa like an old man sorry.
btw, when i bought the bike second gear was already shot.
 
saygbye said:
i guess that was a jab at me not knowing how to ride or something? if not sorry i took it the wrong way.
no one is saying the factory is to blame. however they could have easily undercut the gears and solved the problem. believe it or not a lot of people drag race these bikes(and suzuki knows it). missed shifts without an airshifter are a common occourance also. :rulez: yes its rider error but not everbody rides thier busa like an old man sorry.
btw, when i bought the bike second gear was already shot.
Click to expand...
Naw, I don't think he was jabbing at you in particular.

And I agree with you that the factory should have undercut the 2nd gear engagement dogs as OEM. The Busa is a torque monster with a high potential for this type of damage. It's a known problem. Sorry you're ripping your trans apart to fix it!
 
saygbye said:
i guess that was a jab at me not knowing how to ride or something? if not sorry i took it the wrong way.
no one is saying the factory is to blame. however they could have easily undercut the gears and solved the problem. believe it or not a lot of people drag race these bikes(and suzuki knows it). missed shifts without an airshifter are a common occourance also. :rulez: yes its rider error but not everbody rides thier busa like an old man sorry.
btw, when i bought the bike second gear was already shot.
Click to expand...
Nope I wasn't jabbing at you in the least, sorry if it came off that way :coolcool: I've just been around a lot of riders over the years with 2nd gear issues and get frustrated that a lot of riders don't understand they have a lot more control than they realize over how long their tranny lasts. Ajay gave an awesome, well-worded post on some important things that can contribute to 2nd gear issues. Also making a habit of making a quick clean shift to 2nd (and all gears) helps a ton too. A quick roll off of the throttle as you blip the clutch and quickly snick into 2nd in a nice smooth fashion is way better than a long clutch pull with a slow shift. The more noise you hear between shifts the more wear. And slamming gears isn't the best way to shift if you have probs, working on a smooth, tranny saving technique is way better. You can shift hard and fast, and still shift clean and save you're gears, that was really the point I was trying to make to everybody reading...not a jab at you :beerchug: Its actually good these posts come up though, because the more info we can share with each other, the better all our riding experiences can be :thumbsup:
 
PocketRocket said:
Do you have pictures of the engine out ? and what you had to take apart to get to the trans? Is it a difficult process ?
Click to expand...

Looks like I deleted them on accident, sorry. I took photos of everything. Basically you have to split the cases to get the trans out. The cylinder and head and can stay in tact, but the starter, starter clutch, stater and clutch all have to come out and them you pull all of the case bolts on top, flip the motor over and pull the bottom ones and them the bottom have of the case comes off and the crank and trans could be pulled at that point. I have taken apart quite a few of these motors so I can do it in no time now.

I will snap some more photos in a bit and post them soon.

Scott
 
Not too be the barer of bad news here, but did you remove the top end?

Cause to service the tranny there is no need to remove the top end!
 
ok here is the question, how much did it cost to have it fixed? I wonder if anybody in my area can do it or knows the upgrade? Im in greenville sc. Thanks
 
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